The Almighty Unions

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JimC
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:16 am

sandinista wrote:
egbert wrote:
JimC wrote: Without unions, things would be very unbalanced indeed. The power of capital, and its understandable desire to drive wages and conditions as low as possible, means that individual workers have little chance to gain a fair share if they act alone. Collective, organised action by workers is vital; without it, capitalism would tend to become the total monster that sandinista thinks it is already... ;)
Become? We've been there already see Anti-Trust laws and Robber Barons. And now the "Global economy" scam is being used to force workers to "compete" in a race to the bottom.
"become" indeed. Already there jimbo.
This is yet another symptom of absolutism, whether it be of the left or of the right. Tongue in cheek, I use the term "monster" for capitalism; I know that sandinista and others will see it unreservedly as a monstrous system of selfish greed that grinds the proletariat into the dust, and I know that seth and others will see it purely as a shining bastion of personal freedom...

As usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... :roll:

There have been times (eg. early in the industrial revolution) and places (eg. many third world countries today) where capitalism comes truly close to deserving that moniker, whatever innovations or economic growth it was fostering. However, where working people can organise, and where progressive governments can legislate, a workable, pragmatic system will evolve where the excesses of capitalist greed are checked and balanced. The far left will grumble that the underlying system has not been radically overhauled; they refuse to see the sobering lessons of history which come from previous attempts at communist government, always lamely claiming that true socialism is just around the corner, given one more chance...

The champions of capital will rightly point to the innovation, drive and efficiency which accrue from a free enterprise system; what they want, however, is for the shackles to be removed, and the beast allowed to control absolutely how it treats its labour force. The fruits of that are to be seen in third world sweatshops, where non-unionised labour toil under appalling conditions, without hindance from the corrupt governments that welcome unscrupulous corporations to their countries. Perhaps there, one day, another Lenin will arise. If so, we know whose fault it will be...
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by sandinista » Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:46 am

JimC wrote:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... :roll:
:funny: what would we do without jimmy, the vessel of truth. Get over yourself.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Sun Apr 10, 2011 8:50 am

sandinista wrote:
JimC wrote:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... :roll:
:funny: what would we do without jimmy, the vessel of truth. Get over yourself.
A clear, succinct and rational rebuttal of my points... :roll:

At least Seth makes an effort...

I am beginning to conclude that I am under somewhat more effective attack from the right than the left...
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by sandinista » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:01 am

JimC wrote:
sandinista wrote:
JimC wrote:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... :roll:
:funny: what would we do without jimmy, the vessel of truth. Get over yourself.
A clear, succinct and rational rebuttal of my points... :roll:

At least Seth makes an effort...

I am beginning to conclude that I am under somewhat more effective attack from the right than the left...
Why would I bother with a "rebuttal"? Rebuttal to what? You're a broken record. All you do is repeat..."I am the center I am the truth" over and over. Yawn. Extremist nonsense. :yawn: Everything is black and white to you, black and white, left and right. You want a rebuttal when you base every post you make on outdated, useless, meaningless terms. Have fun in your black and white left and right I am the center I am the truth world of rainbows.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by sandinista » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:06 am

Image
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:11 am

sandinista wrote:
JimC wrote:
sandinista wrote:
JimC wrote:As usual, the truth lies somewhere in-between... :roll:
:funny: what would we do without jimmy, the vessel of truth. Get over yourself.
A clear, succinct and rational rebuttal of my points... :roll:

At least Seth makes an effort...

I am beginning to conclude that I am under somewhat more effective attack from the right than the left...
Why would I bother with a "rebuttal"? Rebuttal to what? You're a broken record. All you do is repeat..."I am the center I am the truth" over and over. Yawn. Extremist nonsense. :yawn: Everything is black and white to you, black and white, left and right. You want a rebuttal when you base every post you make on outdated, useless, meaningless terms. Have fun in your black and white left and right I am the center I am the truth world of rainbows.
Apart from noticing that I have a coherent and quite pragmatic political position, that says nothing at all...

So, you disagree that unions have been a vital social movement to advance the cause of working people the world over?

Figures, given that they have been outlawed by communist states all though history...

Can't have the working man disputing decisions made by the One True Party...
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by sandinista » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:40 am

JimC wrote:
Apart from noticing that I have a coherent and quite pragmatic political position...
Yes Jimmy...keep telling yourself that. If you say it enough times I'm sure you'll believe it. fanatics :roll:
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:48 am

sandinista wrote:
JimC wrote:
Apart from noticing that I have a coherent and quite pragmatic political position...
Yes Jimmy...keep telling yourself that. If you say it enough times I'm sure you'll believe it. fanatics :roll:
But quite seriously, forgetting about the verbals, what do you actually think about unions? We've heard the whole hatred/dismissal thing from Seth and (to a lesser extent) CES, what coherent position does the far left have on the value of unions in modern democracies?

You know my position - they are vital checks and balances against the unrestricted power of capital.

Have you finished sarcastic sniping, or do you have an opinion?
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by MrJonno » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:41 am

Unions are very much part of the capitalist system, a union in effect is a company using bulk purchasing (of labour) to make a profit for its employees. Its also one of the way it allows capitalism to function along with government regulations. Without it you don't get a freer market and more capitalism you get communism when the people at the bottom shoot those at the top and everyone suffers

It will be interesting to see it ultra-capitalist China can actually keep capitalism going without such things, ironically I suspect they will end up with revolution if they treat their workers too badly and end up back being communist
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by .Morticia. » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:46 pm

MrJonno wrote:Unions are very much part of the capitalist system, a union in effect is a company using bulk purchasing (of labour) to make a profit for its employees. Its also one of the way it allows capitalism to function along with government regulations. Without it you don't get a freer market and more capitalism you get communism when the people at the bottom shoot those at the top and everyone suffers

It will be interesting to see it ultra-capitalist China can actually keep capitalism going without such things, ironically I suspect they will end up with revolution if they treat their workers too badly and end up back being communist

ok

communism is when the people at the bottom shoot those at the top

Got it.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by PsychoSerenity » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:00 pm

JimC wrote: But quite seriously, forgetting about the verbals, what do you actually think about unions? We've heard the whole hatred/dismissal thing from Seth and (to a lesser extent) CES, what coherent position does the far left have on the value of unions in modern democracies?

You know my position - they are vital checks and balances against the unrestricted power of capital.

Have you finished sarcastic sniping, or do you have an opinion?
I consider myself fairly far to the left and I agree, unions are vital to balance power in the societies we've currently got - though I suspect with modern technology they may become less formal, less in or out, and more of a sliding scale of popular opinion.

Theoretically in a fair, just, equal society (I'm not claiming here to know how to get one) unions would be unnecessary because everyone would already be being served by the society as best as they could be. Or perhaps unions would be everywhere but sort of blended into the background as a fundamental part of that society, ready to rise up and counterbalance problems as times change.

Either way I think it's wrong to try and prevent people with similar goals from grouping together to achieve them.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Sun Apr 10, 2011 2:12 pm

Seth wrote: Of course this means cutting literally all social welfare programs, perhaps with the exception of emergency programs for the truly indigent, which is something that socialists simply cannot comprehend.
In spite of its social programs and welfare state, Finland continues to rank ahead of the United States in international competitiveness, with the other Scandinavian welfare states of Sweden, Norway and Denmark close behind. Proving that you really can take care of your people while remaining internationally competitive. The reason most often given was the sound fiscal management and astute governmental leadership in the Scandinavian countries. The World Economic Forum Competitiveness index was drawn from a survey of 11,000 business leaders worldwide.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by MrJonno » Sun Apr 10, 2011 3:51 pm

communism is when the people at the bottom shoot those at the top
No revolution is, and if you are already ultra capitalist like China its pretty much the only other economic choice
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by .Morticia. » Sun Apr 10, 2011 4:56 pm

MrJonno wrote:
communism is when the people at the bottom shoot those at the top
No revolution is, and if you are already ultra capitalist like China its pretty much the only other economic choice
revolutions are never from the bottom up

revolutions typically occur when an economically powerful group wrests power from a redundant political group

such as the bourgoisie taking power from the aristocracy
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:09 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote: Ah yes. I like to think I have a macropenis, or a megalopenis. :biggrin:
So, does that make you a self-declared prick?
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