The Coronavirus Thread

[pErvinalia]

I would have thought that Dutch stats are the best stats.

[NineBerry]

Very few people actually die from car crashes. They die from blood loss, crashed brains or heart failures.

[Hermit]

Still quoting data that has been disputed by other experts here.

To be sure, to be sure. Data are being disputed about everything all the time.

Have you watched Plandemic yet?

[rainbow]

I would have thought that Dutch stats are the best stats.

They determine how you pop your clogs, I've heard.

[Scot Dutchy]

I would have thought that Dutch stats are the best stats.

They determine how you pop your clogs, I've heard.

[rainbow]

I would have thought that Dutch stats are the best stats.

They determine how you pop your clogs, I've heard.

Pull your finger out of that dyke, you prevert!

[Brian Peacock]

Nevermind. Which deaths are due to the virus? We dont know. That is very much the discussion here. We dont know actual deaths. A Coronas death here is only when the patient has tested positive and then the virus is only a contributory factor and may not be the cause of death.
Hermit those figures have long been dismissed as inaccurate.

Your government admits the incomplete nature of the figures. As in Italy, Spain, and the UK the mortality rate in the general population is significantly higher than can be accounted for by Covid-19 deaths alone. This means that if you exclude the confirmed Covid-19 deaths there's still a higher mortality rate than would be expected for the time of year.

Whether you know the the exact cause of death in every case is irrelevant - and an arbitrary condition that you alone are imposing on the situation - but if your basic point is that Covid-19 infections might not be the actual cause of death (which is, to make a distinction between those who die with Covid-19 and those who die from Covid-19 as it were) then all you're doing is playing fast-an-loose with equivocation. We already have a framework by which talk about these kinds of deaths with conditions such as cancer and HIV/AIDS. For example, most people who die from HIV/AIDS don't die from the condition itself, but from the consequences of the condition - a compromised immune system. But while they may die from an overwhelming infection - usually pneumonia - we acknowledge that HIV/AIDS is a significant contributory factor and say that they died of 'an AIDS-related illness'. All you're trying to do is quibble that the deaths of people who died from 'a Covid-19-related illness' cannot be attributed to the virus itself, but at the same time you're presuming that the viral infection played no part in their demise, or at the very least that its lethality is minimal. Frankly Scot, it comes across as disingenuous and no different to people like Fred Phelps when they suggested that US service personnel killed in Afghanistan died due to American sodomy and God's wrath rather than being posted to a war zone and shot or blown up - and in that respect it's just as disrespectful to the families of the bereaved as Phelps ever was.

[Scot Dutchy]

Once again Brian you are using completely different circumstances in a comparison. What has AIDS to do with the Corona infection? While there are people who have died from solely the virus many others that have been readily dumped into the same category when the virus is not the primary cause of their demise and it is debatable whether you can lump all these deaths into the same simple category. You cant unless a post mortem was carried out to see which complaint was fatal. You cant say anyone died from the Corona virus if they were suffering from other complaints. The virus is secondary and just because it does not suit governments there should be no reason why these deaths are lumped together to achieve their political aims.
Your reference Brian to Phelps is a very very low response and one I would expect from certain other members here but of course it is your usual tactic of personal insult which seems to be condoned here. I am not insulting anyone but I am getting very fed up with ease certain members are allowed to abuse the rules here.

[laklak]

We're meeting our dock neighbors for dinner at an outdoor restaurant tonight, they're leaving to head back to New York on Sunday. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us.

[Brian Peacock]

Once again Brian you are using completely different circumstances in a comparison. What has AIDS to do with the Corona infection?

It offers us a way to talk about people whose death from or with Covid-19 is impacted by co-morbidities. In the example you brought in it means that we can say that people didn't die from their diabetes alone but from their diabetes in conjunction with the coronavirus infection.

While there are people who have died from solely the virus many others that have been readily dumped into the same category when the virus is not the primary cause of their demise and it is debatable whether you can lump all these deaths into the same simple category. You cant unless a post mortem was carried out to see which complaint was fatal.

As I said, that's irrelevant - it's an arbitrary distinction which you're pulling out of thin air, an assumption, a guess. As the figures from the Netherlands, UK, Spain, & Italy show, even when Covid-19 deaths are excluded from the mortality data the death rates during the crisis are still significantly higher than the expected seasonal averages. Unless you can demonstrate some other factor/s that might be causing a significant number of excess deaths all you're bringing to the table is the sense that your opinion is correct.

You cant say anyone died from the Corona virus if they were suffering from other complaints.

Yes you can, unless you can show that people, for example, with type II diabetes or dementia or angina or gluten intolerance, or whatever, who died after becoming infected with Covid-19 would have died at the same time without it from whatever other condition they had - and then you'd have to account for the significantly higher base level of deaths for the time of year.

The virus is secondary and just because it does not suit governments there should be no reason why these deaths are lumped together to achieve their political aims.

It seems that things like old age, obesity, type I and II diabetes, asthma, congenital inflammatory arthritis, being male, etc, increase your chances of dying if you become infected with Covid-19. All you doing is negating the virus and declaring that if someone with any of those factors died after becoming infected with the coronavirus then it was old age, obesity, type I and II diabetes, asthma, congenital inflammatory arthritis, or being male which killed them. That, my friend, is complete and utter dingo's kidneys.

Your reference Brian to Phelps is a very very low response and one I would expect from certain other members here but of course it is your usual tactic of personal insult which seems to be condoned here. I am not insulting anyone but I am getting very fed up with ease certain members are allowed to abuse the rules here.

I personally think that you're being incredibly insensitive and disrespectful to families who've lost loved ones due to Covid-19 - the Phelps analogy was just my way of articulating my viewpoint and bringing it home to you. From my perspective your reactionary rantings on the Covid-19 crisis are not just an insult to rational intelligence but to the dead, the sick, their families, and the medical and public health staff who are working to save people's lives and maintain your safety, health, and well-being. On this matter I'm not prepared to let 'the World according to Scot Dutchy' pass unchallenged. If you want me to take your opinions seriously give me some rational reasons to believe them rather than merely repeating them over-and-over again as if they're self-evident truths.

[Joe]

We're meeting our dock neighbors for dinner at an outdoor restaurant tonight, they're leaving to head back to New York on Sunday. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us.

May the odds be ever in your favor and enjoy dinner Lak.

[Seabass]

We're meeting our dock neighbors for dinner at an outdoor restaurant tonight, they're leaving to head back to New York on Sunday. Holy Mary Mother of God pray for us.

One of these should keep you safe.

[Scot Dutchy]

Brian you are talking pure shit. You insult me and you allow others to do the same. You were using Phelps because I dont accept the crap presented by many governments. YOU STEPPED OVER THE LINE. I am not insulting any one and if I am please tell me how. I am questioning the data and nothing else. What you want to interpret then that is YOI.
There is no international protocol to define what is a Corona virus death. Being infected by the virus and dying is not a Coronas death. I have fibrosis of the lungs and that is the primary complaint. If I got the virus (which I think I did) it would not be the cause of death. IT IS THE SECONDARY INFECTION.
Just why are you so insulting? Why cant you stand someone just questioning your rigid beliefs. You are like an evangelical. Your ideas are the only ones and because a few certain mistaken fools back you makes it all alright.
I am not the only one. Many level headed highly qualified people also challenge the shit put out by governments.
That comparison with Phelps was one step too far and if you are not willing to apologise and take proper action then sorry you have failed.

[Scot Dutchy]

Here is a Dutch cartoon.



The RIVM is closed and the sign says follow the directives.

[pErvinalia]

Brian you are talking pure shit. You insult me and you allow others to do the same. You were using Phelps because I dont accept the crap presented by many governments. YOU STEPPED OVER THE LINE.

I'm not surprised you can't even get simple concepts like this right. He compared your argument to Phelp's argument. That's not a personal attack.