Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

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Whose Hard Brexit do you want to get shafted by?

Poll ended at Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:01 pm

Labour's Hard Brexit!
0
No votes
Tory Hard Brexit
1
13%
Cheese or bacon or something
7
88%
 
Total votes: 8

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:34 am

pErvin wrote:What happens if the UK keeps playing games and won't be reasonable about an agreement? Is there a default exit that happens regardless of whether the UK signs up to it or not?
The default exit is the so-called Hard Brexit - an un-negotiated 'clean-break' withdrawal from all cross-national commitments, agreements and treatises and a complete severance of all political, legal, military, administrative, and economic ties. A Norway-type arrangement is the so-called 'Soft Brexit' option. Anything and everything other than the soft option, all degrees towards the harder version, is an unknown and untested quantity.

It's worth noting that until the final notice is signed off we're still technically part of the EU and subject to the agreed procedures which follow the invocation of Article 50 - we're signatories to that already. The whole point of Article 50 is to provide a framework for an orderly withdrawal such that each party can make the necessary provisions for the transition and tie off any outstanding obligations or commitments. However, an un-negotiated severance of relations kind of makes Article 50 irrelevant.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:05 am

:tup:
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:09 am

pErvin wrote:What happens if the UK keeps playing games and won't be reasonable about an agreement? Is there a default exit that happens regardless of whether the UK signs up to it or not?
Yep the 29-3-19 is exit day with or without an agreement.

Then all treaties are off. You will not be able to fly from the UK to the EU. Big problems at borders. No goods can pass one way or the other. No power from the EU. Well nothing from the EU. There are no agreements.
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:05 am

'Great repeal bill' human rights clause sets up Brexit clash with Labour

The government has set itself on a collision course with opposition parties by insisting that it will not bring the EU charter of fundamental rights into domestic law on Brexit day.

The EU (withdrawal) bill, published on Thursday – known as the “great repeal bill”– which will formally enact Brexit, includes a clause which says: “The charter of fundamental rights is not part of domestic law on or after exit day.”

The shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, has made the incorporation of the charter – which interprets EU human rights – one of the six tests he will apply when Labour decides whether to vote for the bill when it returns to parliament in the autumn. The Liberal Democrats have also made it a key demand.

The government believes the charter, which interprets existing EU rights rather than creating new ones, will no longer be necessary after “exit day”, when Britain leaves the EU. But refusing to incorporate it will set up one of a series of parliamentary struggles as Theresa May tries to get the legislation through parliament.

The first and most historically significant line of the historic bill says simply: “The European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day.”

But the legislation also brings EU law into domestic UK law, to create continuity after what the bill calls “exit day”.

And it contains controversial new powers for ministers to tweak laws and create new institutions, where these are deemed necessary to make EU law work when it is transferred to UK law.

Ministers will be able to use these so-called “Henry VIII powers” for up to two years after exit day, reflecting the government’s fear that it could face a bottleneck of legislation as it battles to make the necessary changes in time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ith-labour
The European Charter on Human Rights is what incorporates the UN Declaration of Human Rights into EU law.

Taking bets in the right-leaning press making a bigger splash of Mrs May's testimony today that she shed a tear on election day than the possible human rights limbo ahead.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by mistermack » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:02 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Just read European law.
:funny: That's the point you're incapable of getting. I'm not going to try again.

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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:48 pm

Martin Kettle is getting worried...
It’s not one part of the strategy that is now under pressure. Increasingly it’s every part, home and abroad, present and future, each impacting the other in the way that happens if politics spins out of control. The publication of the repeal bill – no longer “great”, just long, complex and unwinding – shows how the domestic political context of Brexit is shifting. A year ago, the two main parties were united in their need to pay homage to the Brexit vote. Now Labour’s six conditions that must be satisfied before the bill can go ahead show the sharp stiffening of the oppositional impulse, while the Tory party is split every which way on Brexit, as the select committee elections showed this week.

The negotiations with Europe are an increasingly embarrassing mess too. In Brussels, Michel Barnier leads an organised, rational team of negotiators whose professionalism is a credit to the system. Meanwhile in London, amateurs, ideologues and chancers rule. No one can really say what the Brexit policy is. Three government papers published on Thursday are as clear as mud. May is too weak to stop the hand-to-hand wrestling for control of the policy between David Davis and the increasingly assertive Philip Hammond. And everything is complicated by the leadership manoeuvring for the post-May era.

As is her way, May continues to repeat her Brexit mantras. She is getting on with the job, working to get a good deal, always talking as if the outcome is certain. But it’s not certain at all. The lack of detail is persistent and has become disabling. May remains an optimist on Brexit, but close observers think even she makes the fatal mistake that sank David Cameron, of thinking all this can ultimately be sorted between politicians. Boris Johnson lazily makes the same error.
...
May is trapped by the toxic politics that put her into office a year ago and the growing realisation that Brexit is heading to be an economic and diplomatic disaster for Britain. Her essential stance in the election was that the country should rally behind her Brexit strategy. The country demurred. She still has not faced what this means. It means she has to reconfigure Brexit and go for a Norway-style transitional deal inside the European Economic Area (EEA), with the European court of justice remaining a central part of the arbitration system. If she won’t do that, she risks being deposed.

Yet still the fantasy goes on, nowhere more so than on trade. Last autumn the Treasury produced an unpublished internal paper that concluded that the costs of hard Brexit far outweighed any potential gains from Liam Fox’s free trade agreement strategy. The idea that 20 to 30 bilateral agreements could compensate for the losses of Brexit was idle thinking, it said. Hammond, who thinks Fox is a fantasist, told the cabinet that the costs were too high. Elsewhere in government, fact-free denial of these realities still reigns.
...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... rade-deals
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:10 am

UK 'sleepwalking' into food insecurity after Brexit, academics say

Study attacks complacency after years of stable food supplies and prices, saying lack of policy ‘suggests chaos unless redressed’

The government is “sleepwalking” into a post-Brexit future of insecure, unsafe and increasingly expensive food supplies, and has little idea how it will replace decades of EU regulation on the issue, a report by influential academics has said.

The study says ministers and the public have become complacent after decades of consistent food supplies and stable prices for the UK, something greatly helped by the EU.

Written by food policy experts from three universities, it is published on the day David Davis, the Brexit secretary, heads to Brussels for a second round of formal talks with the EU on departure arrangements.

Davis said the talks would be “getting into the real substance” of what had to be decided, saying a priority would be the reciprocal rights of EU nationals abroad.

The report argues that there has been an almost complete lack of action so far in a host of areas connected to food and farming, including subsidies, migrant farm labour and safety standards.

“With the Brexit deadline in 20 months, this is a serious policy failure on an unprecedented scale,” said Tim Lang, professor of food policy at City Universityand one of the authors.

Prof Erik Millstone from Sussex University, who compiled the study with Lang and Prof Terry Marsden from Cardiff University, said the lack of government action was baffling.

“We are surprised at the failure of the government to address a huge set of issues related to food and agriculture,” he said. “They give the impression of sort of sleepwalking into this.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... demics-say
The Brexiterros are already calling this as 'more lies from project fear'. You couldn't make it up.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by JimC » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:33 am

People in Oz might go back to their immediate post-war practice of sending food parcels to poor starving Poms.

Better get used to vegemite... :tea:
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:45 am

Nooooooooooooo!!
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by JimC » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:20 am

It won't kill you, it'll put hairs on your chest! :{D
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:17 am

JimC wrote:People in Oz might go back to their immediate post-war practice of sending food parcels to poor starving Poms.

Better get used to vegemite... :tea:
It"s Marmite that side of the channel, and given that it's a byproduct of the beer industry, I'm not foreseeing any shortage of that.
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:40 am

The British tory government is sleepwalking period. I like the way Davis talks about talks. Does he think the EU is going to listen to him?

In the meantime it is being turned into a fascist state:
The EU Withdrawal Bill could practically turn Britain into a one party state under the Tories


If the Government wants to do something major with its new powers, like create a criminal offence, it will in theory have to seek an affirmative vote in Parliament, although it won’t have to go through the full process of parliamentary scrutiny. Even more worrying is what ministers will have the power to abolish in the process of Brexit


Theresa May has quite rightly taken much of the flak for what is widely accepted as one of the worst general election campaigns in living memory. Throw in the fact she blew an estimated £150m of taxpayers’ money on said endeavour and it’s easy to see why she resembles the political equivalent of the Walking Dead. Indeed she will now go down as the second consecutive Tory Prime Minister to have bet the house on a self-aggrandising, unnecessary vote and lost everything as a result.

Although the election was a disaster for her and her party, it’s been a boon for both the Corbyn project and the majority of the British public opposed to a hard Brexit. It gave the nation the chance to give their verdict on the Tories’ vision for Britain outside of the EU. An offer which amounted to a future of international isolation, with a bargain basement economy. The “Great Repeal Bill”, which was initially outlined in March, was set to give ministers almost unprecedented powers to erode rights and freedoms formerly protected by EU law.

More...
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:31 pm

We covered this in the other thread, but apparently giving Tory ministers sweeping 'Henry VIII' powers is still better than socialism.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Did we. This was published yesterday.
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Re: Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

Post by Hermit » Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:51 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:Did we. This was published yesterday.
If you scroll up a bit, you'll find an article on the same topic here, and another one a bit further back.
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