Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post Reply
User avatar
Warren Dew
Posts: 3781
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 1:41 pm
Location: Somerville, MA, USA
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Warren Dew » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:42 am

Cunt wrote:I think one of the large benefits of this leak will be to show how incompetently the documents were protected in the first place.
Exactly. We're lucky that we learned this lesson with no important secrets being revealed. If we hadn't learned that lesson now, things might have gotten much worse. And we're lucky it was Wikileaks, which meant we learned about the leaks, rather than real espionage, where we might never have realized things were being revealed.

There's always going to be a tension between information sharing and secrecy; the ultimate in information sharing would be to just give all classified information to Wikileaks so it was publicly available and anyone could analyze it, and I see no one supporting that. What this incident shows is that the Bush initiatives to increase information sharing have gone too far, and resulted in information being inadequately protected. That gives us a chance to find a better balance.

User avatar
Atheist-Lite
Formerly known as Crumple
Posts: 8745
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:35 pm
About me: You need a jetpack? Here, take mine. I don't need a jetpack this far away.
Location: In the Galactic Hub, Yes That One !!!
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Atheist-Lite » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:08 am

Warren Dew wrote:
Cunt wrote:I think one of the large benefits of this leak will be to show how incompetently the documents were protected in the first place.
Exactly. We're lucky that we learned this lesson with no important secrets being revealed. If we hadn't learned that lesson now, things might have gotten much worse. And we're lucky it was Wikileaks, which meant we learned about the leaks, rather than real espionage, where we might never have realized things were being revealed.

There's always going to be a tension between information sharing and secrecy; the ultimate in information sharing would be to just give all classified information to Wikileaks so it was publicly available and anyone could analyze it, and I see no one supporting that. What this incident shows is that the Bush initiatives to increase information sharing have gone too far, and resulted in information being inadequately protected. That gives us a chance to find a better balance.
Keep it safe, keep it secret...if dollars are only spent inside the US then information is more likely to stay there as well? :ab:
nxnxm,cm,m,fvmf,vndfnm,nm,f,dvm,v v vmfm,vvm,d,dd vv sm,mvd,fmf,fn ,v fvfm,

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:31 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:' after months of unmitigated ideological masturbation.
Much of this entire forum is dedicated to the concept of ideological masturbation. The parts that aren't are dedicated to literal masturbation. :biggrin:

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:45 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Much of this entire forum is dedicated to the concept of ideological masturbation.
Are you claiming to be free of ideology, free of ideological masturbation or neither?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:57 pm

Cunt wrote:So who decides what is important? We have had various governments handling it, with varying degrees of success for years.
I like the system that has applied in the US traditionally, and I'm a tad bit concerned about the direction we're going. The US has been a country which hasn't had a law prohibiting a private person or press outlet (like wikileaks) from publishing whatever it wants, even classified information, except if the private person is engaged in "espionage" (which requires that they be the ones actually stealing info - e.g. doing the hacking or copying - or they be involved in the conspiracy to obtain the docs -- e.g. "that Pentagon computer has US military secrets, let's hack into it...."). Other than that, the people that are prohibited from publishing classified information are government workers who are notified exactly what they're not supposed to disclose and as a condition of employment subject to criminal penalties if they violate their employer's rules. The government then sets up Freedom of Information Rules, that can a citizen can follow and also seek judicial determinations as to whether the government's claim to secrecy is warranted under the law.

The scary part, for me, is not that the government wants to decide what secrets to protect. The scary part is that it seems very likely that very soon, private persons are going to be held to have to know what information that is dropped on their doorsteps is "classified" and not lawful to disseminate.
Cunt wrote: I see immense possibility for good there. If only highlighting that if Joe Public can now get at all that info, there is a good chance that forces of evil have had access to it before.
The good and evil aspect of this is all a matter of opinion, as good and evil always is. The issue for individuals, IMHO, should be "legal obligation." Do you and I, as individuals or as members of the press, have the responsibility - the legal obligation - to vet data dropped on our doorsteps to make sure that the government doesn't want it kept secret? Or, does the government have the obligation to adequately protect what it wants to keep secret? And, to justify that secrecy if the information is requested by a private citizen or media outlet? I think the latter. Whether good or evil is furthered is completely beside the point.
Ian wrote: Assange likes to say he's just a journalist. Well, should the media be exempt from all responsibilities and negligence?
No. They have to refrain from criminal fraud, libeling people, and the like, among other things. However, the question is not whether the media is exempt from "all" responsibilities. The question is whether they have an obligation to check with the government before publishing documentation that may or may not be classified. If that obligation is imposed on the press, then it places a tremendous chilling effect on the media, because there will always be a HUGE grey area around what is and is not important to the government. Sometimes the government's opinion will be completely political, and they will go on witch hunts against media outlets they don't like, and ignore the "offenses" of others. The press will have to look at a packet received from an anonymous source and ask themselves: should I ask the government if it's o.k. to publish, or should I just go ahead and do it. From the perspective of the individual who would face jail time as a result of a mistake in that situation, what do you think will happen?

I think Assange is a total tool-bag. I think he is behaving irresponsibly. I think that publishing all that material without vetting it could have serious unintended (or perhaps in Assange's case "intended") consequences that could effect the US negatively, and perhaps other countries negatively too. That being said, IMHO, it still remains the government's job to protect the secrets it wants to protect, and if they are too sloppy then they ought not to be so sloppy. The fact that some douchebag was able to download this much data without being caught in the act is shameful, and ridiculous, from an IT security perspective. Are they kidding? No flag was triggered when this low level guy was accessing this much data? No second person was required to sign off on his access? They didn't code top-secret and sensitive data in a special way to make sure that only a select few knew of it?

These leaks remind me of the foot locker theft scene in the movie Biloxi Blues. If you don't lock your fucking footlocker, you're inviting theft. In this case, the American government hasn't locked its footlocker. Sure, the thief is still a thief. But, so far, we have seen no allegation, let alone evidence, that Assange is a thief. So, the government should prosecute the thieves and hang the oath-breaker who did it, and anyone who helped him. And, they should call the people to the carpet whose job it was to create a secure data storage system. Those guys really fucked up, and need to pay the price, maybe with their jobs. But, as much of an asshole as Assange may be, until he's alleged to have done more than received information and published it, whatever his motives and whatever the damage, he just ain't a criminal.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:03 pm

Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Much of this entire forum is dedicated to the concept of ideological masturbation.
Are you claiming to be free of ideology, free of ideological masturbation or neither?
As someone who likes this forum, I should think it quite obvious that I'm claiming to be a great lover of masturbation, ideological and otherwise.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:18 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Much of this entire forum is dedicated to the concept of ideological masturbation.
Are you claiming to be free of ideology, free of ideological masturbation or neither?
As someone who likes this forum, I should think it quite obvious that I'm claiming to be a great lover of masturbation, ideological and otherwise.
Yes, yes, that is obvious alright. Now, would please answer my questions?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:24 pm

Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Much of this entire forum is dedicated to the concept of ideological masturbation.
Are you claiming to be free of ideology, free of ideological masturbation or neither?
As someone who likes this forum, I should think it quite obvious that I'm claiming to be a great lover of masturbation, ideological and otherwise.
Yes, yes, that is obvious alright. Now, would please answer my questions?
Sure, even though it's a silly question. Answer: neither.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:31 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Much of this entire forum is dedicated to the concept of ideological masturbation.
Are you claiming to be free of ideology, free of ideological masturbation or neither?
As someone who likes this forum, I should think it quite obvious that I'm claiming to be a great lover of masturbation, ideological and otherwise.
Yes, yes, that is obvious alright. Now, would please answer my questions?
Sure, even though it's a silly question. Answer: neither.
Just to make sure I got this right: Are you saying that you are neither free free of ideology nor free of ideological masturbation?
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:40 pm

Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Sure, even though it's a silly question. Answer: neither.
Just to make sure I got this right: Are you saying that you are neither free free of ideology nor free of ideological masturbation?
Were the choices you gave insufficient to answer your silly and irrelevant question? I'm not claiming to be free of either of the things you asked me about. Clear enough?

Almost nobody is free from either of those things. Everyone but the most dimwitted and apathetic have some form of ideology, even if it is a very simple one. I should think that's apparent. And as for the term "ideological masturbation" - I define that similar to "mental masturbation" (which is intellectual activity that serves no practical purpose) - that covers most of the ideological discussion that goes on on this thread.

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:57 pm

Thank you. A simple "Yes" or "No" would have sufficed, but thank you just the same.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
camoguard
The ferret with a microphone
Posts: 873
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 11:59 pm
About me: I'm very social and philosophically ambitious. Also, I'm chatty and enjoy getting to meet new people on or offline. I think I'm talented in writing and rapping. We'll see.
Location: Tennessee
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by camoguard » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:00 pm

Ian wrote:
camoguard wrote:I don't mind the collateral damage
Why, if it can easily be prevented (or decreased) by scrutinizing which leaks come out and which do not? Are you aware of how many messages came out that have nothing to do with abuses of power? Not minding the collateral damage is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.
camoguard wrote:Their actions need to be held accountable and the occasional leak only contributes to that in my opinion.
Fair enough, but we're not talking about occasional leaks!
Well, maybe in a year or so we might be... :sighsm:
Generally, I would agree with your position. However, it's not the citizen's job to protect the military. It's the military's job to protect the citizen. Assange in my opinion is doing a fine job and I can accept that his job could be done even better. Simultaneously, despite appreciating having leaked information I would not suggest that any particular solider leak information. The soldier or insider doing the leak is the person who should have the most information to determine what should or should not be leaked. They leak, we read. It's very simple.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:02 pm

Seraph wrote:Thank you. A simple "Yes" or "No" would have sufficed, but thank you just the same.
It wasn't clear at all that it would have sufficed. You gave the choices "A, B, or neither" in the first instance, and I chose "neither." "Neither" should have sufficed, but obviously didn't. After that, it was difficult to assume that a mere yes or no would suffice.

What generated the question, anyway? What's your beef?

User avatar
Ian
Mr Incredible
Posts: 16975
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:42 pm
Location: Washington DC

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Ian » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:17 pm

camoguard wrote: Simultaneously, despite appreciating having leaked information I would not suggest that any particular solider leak information. The soldier or insider doing the leak is the person who should have the most information to determine what should or should not be leaked. They leak, we read. It's very simple.
True, except that it's not that simple. PFC Manning downloaded hundreds of thousands of documents, more than he ever could have read and digested (or given his young age and rank, fully understood) and then forwarded them en masse to a publishing source. He didn't "determine" anything about all that information.

Moreover, he did it not for ideological or financial reasons, but because it satisfied his ego. He was dealing with a recent demotion, relationship issues, overseas deployment, etc. Many Wikileaks supporters have made the kid out to be some kind of folk hero sacrificing himself for free speech, but that characterization is a mile off the mark. He leaked a massive number of documents and promptly bragged about it to complete strangers on an internet forum. A comparison could be made to Robert Hanssen; he was another case of leaking information in order to boost his ego, not because he needed (or even spent much of) the money or because he was ideologically sympathetic to the Soviets/Russians.

As for Assange: His culpability depends upon whether or not he had any part in soliciting the information from Manning before Wikileaks actually received it, and whether this solicitation can be proven. If that's what happened and there's evidence of it, then Assange is guilty of a criminal conspiracy and he ought to be thrown in prison. If his website only published the material after receiving it, then on no account should he be charged with anything (other than terrible ethics, but that's not a crime). This detail, by the way, is what the Justice Department has been scrutinizing as it decides whether or not they can charge Assange with anything.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Julian Assange - Still a Class-A prick

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:20 pm

Federal prosecutors, seeking to build a case against the WikiLeaks leader Julian Assange for his role in a huge dissemination of classified government documents, are looking for evidence of any collusion in his early contacts with an Army intelligence analyst suspected of leaking the information.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/16/world ... .html?_r=1

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Tero and 43 guests