US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:35 pm

eXcommunicate wrote:
I'm going by what he has said he wants, not by what he achieves.
And oddly enough I am going by what he has attempted to do or has done, rather than by what I think may be in his heart.
I have no idea what's in his heart, but I do know what he has said and proposed from the 2008 campaign on.
eXcommunicate wrote:
Also, I think the public doesn't understand what "campaign finance reform" is beyond some vague notion that there is something wrong with the way campaigns are financed and that if we "reform" it, we'll make it better. Beyond that, the electorate hardly knows who the Vice President is and thinks the Constitution says whatever they approve of and prohibits everything they don't like.
No disagreement.

But be a politician and come out with a specific plan for reform and you will get destroyed. Be as vague as possible. Even when you are specific odds are less than 50/50 whether the MSM will report upon it (let alone objectively).
I haven't heard a plan proposed that was worth a damn. Have you?

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by eXcommunicate » Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:16 pm

http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -preview/1
I haven't heard a plan proposed that was worth a damn. Have you?
I think that's my point. Either the entire movement toward campaign finance reform is dead, or the MSM refuses to report on it. I think any person who really delves into politics and looks for the root causes of most of our problems, I mean the real root causes, not talking points, would naturally include campaign finance in the top 5. But no one's talking about it anymore. A few root causes off the top of my head:

- Election system. Not just voting machines and gerrymandering, but the entire first-past-the-post system naturally favors an entrenched two-party system.(see: Duverger's Law)

- Campaign finance. Candidates must cow to the wealthiest or most well-connected industries and special interests in order to get elected, then as elected officials must keep these entities happy through sweetheart deals and pork barrel projects in order to secure reelection.

- Budget appropriation procedures. The very method by which Congress creates the budget guarantees overspending, regardless of which party is in power.

These and others are the kinds of things that cause the problems that people (politicians and voters) jump up and down about wanting band-aid solutions.
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:29 pm

eXcommunicate wrote:http://content.usatoday.com/communities ... -preview/1
I haven't heard a plan proposed that was worth a damn. Have you?
I think that's my point. Either the entire movement toward campaign finance reform is dead, or the MSM refuses to report on it. I think any person who really delves into politics and looks for the root causes of most of our problems, I mean the real root causes, not talking points, would naturally include campaign finance in the top 5. But no one's talking about it anymore. A few root causes off the top of my head:

- Election system. Not just voting machines and gerrymandering, but the entire first-past-the-post system naturally favors an entrenched two-party system.(see: Duverger's Law)

- Campaign finance. Candidates must cow to the wealthiest or most well-connected industries and special interests in order to get elected, then as elected officials must keep these entities happy through sweetheart deals and pork barrel projects in order to secure reelection.

- Budget appropriation procedures. The very method by which Congress creates the budget guarantees overspending, regardless of which party is in power.

These and others are the kinds of things that cause the problems that people (politicians and voters) jump up and down about wanting band-aid solutions.
Well, I think campaign finance reform is dead from the get go. It would require a Constitutional Amendment to do what the "more left leaning" side of the American political spectrum want to do, which won't happen. And, any middle of the road "reform" won't be reform at all, but just a scam with loopholes which will exclude more people from the political process than it helps. The Supreme Court opinion that Obama so criticized wasn't really surprising. Read the opinion, it makes perfect sense (Constitutionally).

Well, I'm not so sure I can simply say that "campaign finance" is the root cause of the problems in our system. That term is so broad that those talking about it aren't generally in agreement about what they think the campaign finance problem is. I would just have to see a concrete proposal that makes sense before I can judge. Reform for reform's sake is not always good. If the reform sucks, or makes things worse, then might as well leave it alone.

Candidates are certainly influenced by big money - but then when campaign finance reform is created, one side creates loopholes for their preferred groups. The left side of the American political spectrum tend to oppose "corporate" money, but they don't put similar strictures on union money, for example, or non profit corporation money, for example. That just as the effect of weighting the debate to one's preferred side. The right side of the American political spectrum just includes loopholes so that corporate money can be back-doored in, even after reform is passed.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:30 pm

Some talk of Hillary Clinton 2012 - http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washing ... llips.html

At this point, I haven't heard of a Republican candidate that I like who is running. If it's Hillary vs. Obama, I'll root for Hillary. And, if she wins the Democratic primary, I would vote for her over Huckabee, for example.


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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Feck » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:30 pm

Palin for president .....she understands the right noises to make to fire up the Amerikan voters . and I promise to smile for 4 years when the right wing get what they deserve .
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:36 pm

Feck wrote:Palin for president .....she understands the right noises to make to fire up the Amerikan voters . and I promise to smile for 4 years when the right wing get what they deserve .
I don't think she even seriously wants the job.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Robert_S » Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:45 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Feck wrote:Palin for president .....she understands the right noises to make to fire up the Amerikan voters . and I promise to smile for 4 years when the right wing get what they deserve .
I don't think she even seriously wants the job.
She can quit mid term to serve her country on a different front!!!
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Ian » Thu May 12, 2011 4:15 pm

I’ve mentioned this theory elsewhere, but this is the thread where it belongs. It's meant as something to chew on in the coming year-and-a-half: a little bit of electoral history coupled with a big-picture forecasting of the 2012 election. The font color will shift slightly as history shifts to prediction:


Despite the closeness of the 1960 election, the Kennedy/Johnson administrations spent much of their eight years in office moving the politics of the country substantially leftwards. Attempts to warm relations with the Soviets, the passage of the Civil Rights Act and Medicare, etc… all of this expended a lot of political capital. Added together with their oversight of an increasingly unpopular war, and the Democrats paid dearly in the 1966 midterm elections.

By the time the 1968 elections rolled around, the outgoing President wasn’t too popular even within his own party. That year, both parties nominated some relatively centrist candidates to succeed him, resulting in a fairly close but still decisive election. The Republican (Nixon) won, in part because in 1968 he faced a Democratic party that was dispirited, discredited and ideologically split between pragmatists and an emerging far left, who felt that the previous Democratic administration actually hadn’t gone far enough – compromising their cherished progressive principles for the sake of reaching legislative accommodation with Republicans.

After the Republicans took back the White House, these left-wing ideologues (acting through an assortment of political action groups popularly referred to as the “New Left”) were the ones who started taking over the Democratic Party, state by state, at a grassroots level. They vilified the new Republican President, and they had the luxury of being in a position to criticize him without having to directly deal with him much. Nixon himself, in efforts to make progress on some significant issues (lowering troop levels in Vietnam, détente with Russia, some center-left economic policies, etc.) seemed to have lost significant support from his conservative base. Though the New Left annoyed and even replaced some members of the old Democratic establishment, they were nevertheless instrumental in dealing the new President’s party a blow in the 1970 midterm elections. Energized by such victories and their new clout within the Democratic Party, in the 1972 primaries the New Left surprised several establishment Democratic candidates (i.e. accomodationists) when they helped nominate George McGovern, possibly the most left-of-the-bell-curve candidate ever to secure the nomination for President on a major party ticket.

In November, McGovern was crushed in the general election. So resolute were his supporters’ ideals that they blinded these steadfast liberals to some demographic realities: though the politics of the country may have been moved to the left for some time prior to the current administration, and though the current President enjoyed only modest popularity, most people wanted nothing to do with a far-left ideologue candidate. The New Left was very vocal, but they overestimated the reach of their movement. They failed to appreciate the rise of the Sun Belt, the growing power of the religious right, etc., and in 1972 they paid a high price for nominating a politically immoderate Democrat to challenge a moderate incumbent Republican President who had spent the last couple years seizing control of the political center. Voter turnout in 1972 was less than it had been four years earlier, but that didn’t matter: in the end, the President was re-elected by a huge electoral majority, and the zeal of the New Left’s “no compromises” movement was lost for decades. In the meantime the wheel of the Democratic Party was wrested from their control and returned to the political middle. The Democrats nominated a thoroughly centrist Presidential candidate in 1976.

Fast forward forty years for a mirror image…

Despite the closeness of the 2000 election, the Bush administration spent much of its eight years in office moving the politics of the country substantially rightwards. The passage of major tax cuts, huge increases in defense spending, attempts to overhaul Social Security, etc… all of this expended a lot of political capital. Added together with their oversight of an increasingly unpopular war, and the Republicans paid dearly in the 2006 midterm elections.

By the time the 2008 elections rolled around, the outgoing President wasn’t too popular even within his own party. That year, both parties nominated some relatively centrist candidates to succeed him, resulting in a fairly close but still decisive election. The Democrat (Obama) won, in part because in 2008 he faced a Republican party that was dispirited, discredited and ideologically split between pragmatists and an emerging far right, who felt that the previous Republican administration actually hadn’t gone far enough – compromising their cherished conservative principles for the sake of reaching legislative accommodation with Democrats.

After the Democrats took back the White House, these right-wing ideologues (acting through an assortment of political action groups popularly referred to as the “Tea Party”) were the ones who started taking over the Republican Party, state by state, at a grassroots level. They vilified the new Democratic President, and they had the luxury of being in a position to criticize him without having to directly deal with him much. Obama himself, in efforts to make progress on some significant issues (increasing troop levels in Afghanistan, compromised passage of major health care reforms, extending the Bush tax cuts through 2012, etc.) seemed to have lost significant support from his liberal base. Though the Tea Party annoyed and even replaced some members of the old Republican establishment, they were nevertheless instrumental in dealing the new President’s party a blow in the 2010 midterm elections. Energized by such victories and their new clout within the Republican Party, in the 2012 primaries the Tea Party surprised several establishment Republican candidates (i.e. accomodationists) when they helped nominate *Candidate X* (either a Tea Party type himself or else someone who will have to, happily or not, rhetorically kneel and kiss the Tea Party’s ring in order to prevail in the primaries), possibly the most right-of-the-bell-curve candidate ever to secure the nomination for President on a major party ticket.

In November, *Candidate X* was crushed in the general election. So resolute were his supporters’ ideals that they blinded these steadfast conservatives to some demographic realities: though the politics of the country may have been moved to the right for some time prior to the current administration, and though the current President enjoyed only modest popularity, most people wanted nothing to do with a far-right ideologue candidate. The Tea Party was very vocal, but they overestimated the reach of their movement. They failed to appreciate the rise of the Millennials, the growing power of the Hispanic vote, etc., and in 2012 they paid a high price for nominating a politically immoderate Republican to challenge a moderate incumbent Democratic President who had spent the last couple years seizing control of the political center. Voter turnout in 2012 was less than it had been four years earlier, but that didn’t matter: in the end, the President was re-elected by a huge electoral majority, and the zeal of the Tea Party’s “no compromises” movement was lost for decades. In the meantime the wheel of the Republican Party was wrested from their control and returned to the political middle. The Republicans nominated a thoroughly centrist Presidential candidate in 2016.



Of course there are a million details to help explain each of these things, and there are no perfect historical comparisons. Many points can be brought up for discussion. But this is a macro-political analysis, a point about how pendulums swing in a center-dominated democracy. The details aren’t supposed to matter too much. History never actually repeats itself, but it often rhymes. I think 2012 will rhyme with 1972.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon May 16, 2011 7:02 pm

Obama job approval down to 46% positive.... http://www.gallup.com/Home.aspx

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Gallstones » Mon May 16, 2011 10:41 pm

Brian Schweitzer would make a great president. Too bad he will probably never run.
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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Ian » Wed May 25, 2011 11:32 pm

Signs Grow That Palin May Run
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/us/po ... ml?_r=1&hp

Oh please oh please oh please let her get the GOP nomination! :tut:

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed May 25, 2011 11:36 pm

Ian wrote:Signs Grow That Palin May Run
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/26/us/po ... ml?_r=1&hp

Oh please oh please oh please let her get the GOP nomination! :tut:
Obama will have my vote if that happens.

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Re: US Prez Election 2012 Thread - Opinions and Discussions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:34 pm

Obama Gets 30% of Americans Certain to Support Re-Election in Economy Poll http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-06-2 ... -poll.html Among likely independent voters, only 23 percent said they will back his re-election, while 36 percent said they definitely will look for another candidate.

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