Barack Obama wins the Nobel Peace prize

[JimC]

There is something sickening about ten year olds being taught songs of adulation of any country's leader. Yes, the intention to bring happiness and freedom is commendable indeed, and the song at the start of the last youtube link that Charlou provided above sounds harmless on a superficial level, but parallels with another one should start alarm bells ringing.

Hans Baumann was a 17 year old catholic scout in 1930, when he wrote a song that was meant to anticipate victory over the ways of the preceding generation of warmongers and the fear and terror it induced. It included the lines: "Denn heute, da hört uns Deutschland/und morgen die ganze Welt". It was a song of optimism.

I shuddered when I listened to its most recent incarnation:

• We're gonna spread happiness.
  We're gonna spread freedom.
  Obama's gonna change it.
  Obama's gonna lead'em.
  We're gonna change it
  And rearrange it.
  We're gonna change the world.

In light of how its predecessor was appropriated and abused, it takes on an entirely sinister complexion, but the worst aspect is that it combines adulation of a leader with ideas in the mouths of children that can have no comprehension of those concepts at that level.

I agree with you in prnciple, and it is a reflection of a cult of personality which has infected the entire political world. However, the practical effect of this particular exemplar is probably small, and I suspect that the strident conservative opposition may have convinced the Obama camp that it was a tactical error, not to be repeated...

[charlou]

Look to the thread over at RD.net for further comment.

Thanks, found it and responded.

Good comments, btw - why didn't you post similar here?

[Drewish]

Hitler's here. Thread's over.

FBM actually compared me to the Nazis a page back, which is why I decided to take a break from this thread. And here's my own contribution to the Nazi children song propaganda video collection.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

On a side note. Is there anyone here who both believes that these children songs are not indoctrination worth protesting and simultaneously believes that Obama did deserve the Nobel Peace Prize? I'd be very interested to hear that opinion.

[Trolldor]

Hitler's here. Thread's over.

FBM actually compared me to Hitler a page back (he since edited the post) which is why I decided to take a break from this thread. And here's my own contribution to the Nazi children song propaganda video collection.

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

On a side note. Is there anyone here who both believes that these children songs are not indoctrination worth protesting and simultaneously believes that Obama did deserve the Nobel Peace Prize? I'd be very interested to hear that opinion.

That's a bit of a non-sequitor, ain't it?

[FBM]

Hitler's here. Thread's over.

FBM actually compared me to Hitler a page back which is why I decided to take a break from this thread.

I did? I don't remember that. IF I did, I certainly apologize profusely. There are times when I post . Also, if I edited it, it means I saw my own error. No matter how strongly our views oppose one another, I never mean anything personal. Please keep this in mind. I don't oppose you, even when I oppose the ideas you express and I hope I never insult you personally. If something I say appears to be personal, please PM me and I'll retract/edit/delete/apologize publically or whatever is required.

[Drewish]

Which part was a non-seqitur? The one where I show that Godwin's law was actually broken by the other side first, or the part where I ask for the opinion of someone who is against pro-Obama indoctrination and also thinks he deserves the Nobel prize? (Basically I want to hear the opinion of a non-Obama-worshiper who thinks he should have gotten the prize, or even see if there are any around here.)

EDIT - FBM quoted me before I made a correction. I was compared to the Nazis not Hitler himself, and I don't think you're an aggressive person or anything. The debate was just getting very heated and so I left for a day because it was clearly getting to the point where neither of us were keeping our emotions out of it anymore. Don't worry, we're cool (that is unless you have a problem with me.)

[FBM]

EDIT - FBM quoted me before I made a correction. I was compared to the Nazis not Hitler himself, and I don't think you're an aggressive person or anything. The debate was just getting very heated and so I left for a day because it was clearly getting to the point where neither of us were keeping our emotions out of it anymore. Don't worry, we're cool (that is unless you have a problem with me.)

Gimme some luvin'!

[Trolldor]

Which part was a non-seqitur?

The nobel/indoctrination part.

It just sort of came out of the blue.

[Drewish]

Which part was a non-seqitur?

The nobel/indoctrination part.

It just sort of came out of the blue.

Well bias and political loyalty can certainly color opinions. I don't personally see a credible way to defend pro-Obama indoctrination. And I also have not seen anyone here who's opinions lined up so that they did not either both opposed the children's songs and think the award was a mistake, or not have a problem with the song and think the award was justified. I'm not saying that this is evidence of political bias in only one way (I have admitted to leaning right, so I might very well be bias here.) I just think that it's important to recognize our propensity to be biased based on political camps and ideology, which is why it's important to ask probing specific questions in order to see if any inconsistency or cognitive dissonance is in fact taking place.

[Trolldor]

There are no grounds for justified indoctrination.
But the video does not point to indoctrination, insofar as there is no indication the children were coerced in to it and the parents had no knowledge. As far as I can see, it is no different to what parents all across America do to their own children when they indoctrinate them with their religious or political beliefs.
As for the nobel prize, I see no difference between giving him a paper ball and the nobel prize. It's always been a farce.
If you can show me who the other candidates were then I can see if he 'deserved' it.

[FBM]

Well, shit, I don't have a problem with the song and I think the Nobel was reasonable.

The song: Adults indoctrinate children. That's a large part of being a parent or a teacher. It happens every day in every culture. That song is just another in a very, very long list of examples. The pledge of allegiance is indoctrination. Bush's propaganda to link Iraq to WMDs, Al Qaeda and 9/11 was indoctrination. Strictly speaking, the alphabet song is indoctrination. Whether you oppose that Obama song or not is largely a reflection of your political bias, which is just a reflection of the influences you have been exposed to. The song is as much about fostering peace and cooperation as it is about Obama.

The Nobel: Yes, it was largely symbolic, but you can't deny that Obama's ascendency to the the presidency has ushered in a dramatic shift in global politics towards diplomacy over war, and it offers hope to the downtrodden. It's a round of applause for the demise of bigotry. Who is responsible for his election? Well, foremost is Obama himself, isn't it? One aspect of that choice that seems to be largely ignored is 'Is there anyone else currently more deserving whose selection would do more good for world peace?' I don't know who else was on the list of candidates, so I admit that I can't say for sure, but I don't have a problem with Obama getting it. Fuck, if Kissinger can get it, where do you draw the line? Charles Manson?

[Drewish]

The song: Adults indoctrinate children. That's a large part of being a parent or a teacher. It happens every day in every culture. That song is just another in a very, very long list of examples. The pledge of allegiance is indoctrination. Bush's propaganda to link Iraq to WMDs, Al Qaeda and 9/11 was indoctrination. Strictly speaking, the alphabet song is indoctrination. Whether you oppose that Obama song or not is largely a reflection of your political bias, which is just a reflection of the influences you have been exposed to. The song is as much about fostering peace and cooperation as it is about Obama.

My subjectivity sense is tingling. If you really feel that way, then I guess you don't have a problem with Bush pushing the Iraq war then? And here, you might find you fancy these educational books.

[Trolldor]

The song is as much about fostering peace and cooperation as it is about Obama.

Doesn't.
Fucking.
Matter.

Indoctrination is still indoctrination.

The question remains only whether:
a) This was a teacher indoctrinating students
or
b) Precisely the exact same actions that occur in almost every household across America. Faux news is not a good sauce, as if it had been prayer they would have FUCKING RAGED if the teacher was fired.

[FBM]

The song: Adults indoctrinate children. That's a large part of being a parent or a teacher. It happens every day in every culture. That song is just another in a very, very long list of examples. The pledge of allegiance is indoctrination. Bush's propaganda to link Iraq to WMDs, Al Qaeda and 9/11 was indoctrination. Strictly speaking, the alphabet song is indoctrination. Whether you oppose that Obama song or not is largely a reflection of your political bias, which is just a reflection of the influences you have been exposed to. The song is as much about fostering peace and cooperation as it is about Obama.

My subjectivity sense is tingling. If you really feel that way, then I guess you don't have a problem with Bush pushing the Iraq war then?

That's a distortion of my point, isn't it? My point was that we indoctrinate our children. That's what people do. Whether you agree or disagree with another's indoctrination of his/her kids is a matter of perspective, which is the product of one's own indoctrination. Whether it's Bush's push for war with Iraq or gay rights or the democratic ideal or even the English language, it's all indoctrination. The word 'indoctrination' has no inherent connotations. We make connotations of it by applying our biases.

And here, you might find you fancy these educational books.

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/2008/aug ... tions.html The bullshit wars involve massive bombardment from both sides.

Let me briefly reiterate something I posted a while back: I'm not committed to either the liberal or conservative agendas. I see both as having strong and weak points. What I find unreasonable is siding with one or the other unconditionally. Both engage equally in propagandizing and consensus engineering, but that's pretty much what happens around the globe. The US just happens to be more advanced in that field. My message is that we should go with the side that promotes less killing, more understanding, patience and tolerance. Nevertheless, when faced with extremists like Al Qaeda, yeah, blow them the fuck away. But don't go making shit up about the people whose ideologies you don't like just to garner public support for a war against them that's really about acquiring their (oil) resources in order to feed your uber-wealthy elite overlords/constituents. That's just trading the lives of your citizens for a larger profit margin.

[FBM]

...Faux news is not a good sauce...

You lost me at the 'sauce' thing.

All education is indoctrination. We need to be more specific about what exactly we mean when we use the word 'indoctination'. If you're using it to imply foisting one's political bias on one's offspring, then this whole story is old news. It's been happening for as long as human hisory has been recorded. If you re-read, for example, The Iliad and The Odssey and Plato's Republic in this light, you'll see what I mean.