Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

[Scot Dutchy]

No. Sorry. A new referendum wont achieve anything only more chaos. The new tax laws are less than a week away. That is what is focussing the Brexiteers not the country.
No-deal will cost the UK a lot of money including claims from the EU 27. Why should we pay?

[Brian Peacock]

When the nation went to the polls in 2016 to decide whether we should Leave or Remain as members of the EU few people had any practical idea of what that actually entailed and how it would effect the country, or us personally. A second referendum would find the public far more informed and aware of the consequences of leaving without a deal, leaving under the terms of the government's negotiated deal, or remaining in the EU. A compulsory poll could be organised quickly if the political will were there, and I'm sure the EU would be willing to extend the article 50 period while that took place if needed. As I've said before, I think the result of a compulsory poll would be a lot easier for people to live with, particularly if the rules around campaign finance were hardened and enforced on the understanding that cheating would de-legitimise the result.

The problem in all of this is that the main political parties can only ever conceive of this in terms of their own political fortune come the next election, rather than it being a true nation-building exercise.

[Scot Dutchy]

Would you really think the Brexiteers would accept a result that is not in their favour? Sorry the EU27 are totally fed up with the UK. The press in the UK seems unable to report the true feelings of the people here. Any bit of empathy as flown out of the window. We want an end to this insecurity. The EU does not function like this. The UK apparently can only live in chaos we cant. We have given you long enough. The costs involved are mounting up and expect a claim being made. The EU is not a charity.
You should leave and take stock and the re-apply if you want to. We will handle the mess at our end.

[Hermit]

In the unlikely event of a second referendum, and assuming the result is to remain in the EU, the member nations will have a big think about it, lasting for perhaps as long as a Plank length of a second, then accept the UK's change of mind. The reason for that is the economy. When all is said and done, every major business, manufacturers, bankers, service providers and whatnot, will be better off. The cost of the kerfuffle will simply be written off. Business as usual will resume.

The profit motive trumps the desire for punishment or revenge every time, and the politicians are the lackeys of the profit makers. Does anyone think that the members of, say, Volkswagen's board of directors will forego an extra 200 million Euros added to the bottom line in order to teach the Engländer a lesson? Only someone with a Scottish mindset would consider such an action.

[Alan B]

And then, of course, there's Trump the Cunt just waiting for us to leave which will make it easier for him to start carving-up the NHS and the medical supply companies...
The venal and corrupt politicians (from all parties, though I suspect mostly Tories) will be jumping for joy as their pockets get filled.

[Brian Peacock]

Would you really think the Brexiteers would accept a result that is not in their favour?

No. Remember, the 2016 referendum was called by Cameron as a condition for the support of the Eurosceptic wing of his party. That Euroscepticism encompasses diverse opinions, from those who were just a bit sniffy about the EU, to those who now want to Leave with a deal that maintains trading and political relationships (so-called 'soft Brexiteers') to hardliners like the ERG. But Cameron appeased them because he understood that UKIP were on the march and threatening to split the Tory vote, and because the Tories parliamentary majority was rather too slim to maintain without the promise of backbench support. He tried to settle an internal party management matter on the national stage of a referendum. He gambled, and lost, just as May did when she called a snap election and saw the Tories majority reduced after the 2016 referendum.

So no, hardline Brexiteers like the ERG will never be satisfied, but a compulsory poll would, I think, highlight just how little support there is in the country for their dystopian vision of Britain or a cliff-edge exit from the EU.

Sorry the EU27 are totally fed up with the UK. The press in the UK seems unable to report the true feelings of the people here. Any bit of empathy as flown out of the window.

I would suggest that the rest of the EU doesn't judge the sentiments, ideals, or character of an entire nation by what's published by the Mail or the Telegraph, the Sun, the Express, or the FT. They don't reflect the concerns of ordinary people. They are opinion formers rather than opinion reporters, and predominantly reflect the commercial and political interests of the international corporate conglomerates that own them.

We want an end to this insecurity. The EU does not function like this. The UK apparently can only live in chaos we cant. We have given you long enough. The costs involved are mounting up and expect a claim being made. The EU is not a charity.

Whiles it's true that many from the raggedy right and left of UK politics have never really engaged with the European project, and never really been able to conceptualise the UK as being a part of a broader, continent-wide political consensus, it is important to remember that characterising the EU as a discrete and unified political institution which exists apart from the UK is itself unhelpful and divisive. From talking to my friends in German and Italy, not everyone in the EU has this us (EU26) versus them (UK) attitude you're so keen on. The European project has never been about the UK conforming to the will the EU, as both you and the UK's Eurosceptics imply: it's simply about nations coming together in recognition of our commonalities and in spite of our differences. After all, the EU is the logical extension of the Act of Union which formally constituted the founding of United Kingdom.

You should leave and take stock and the re-apply if you want to. We will handle the mess at our end.

Thanks for the advise.

[Rum]

I agree with much of this, but it is also true that the political classes may well have miscalculated how much of the population - and I suppose many of their fellows, were not on board either. As far back as Mrs Thatcher’s day the notion of an ‘ever closer union’ was resisted - and it was what she fought so doggedly against.

Personally as a pinko liberal I would be for an ever closer union, but it appears that little England isn’t ready, willing or able at the moment.

[rainbow]

The problem in all of this is that the main political parties can only ever conceive of this in terms of their own political fortune come the next election, rather than it being a true nation-building exercise.

Corbyn will look like a complete twat if he now changes and supports Remain, so he is better off fence sitting and avoiding the referendum.
Disclaimer: This does not in any way imply that he does not look like a twat anyway
The Conservatories are afraid of vested interests that want Brexit to go ahead.
The Literal Dingbats have no credibility, which is a shame since they are very nice people and are the only party that make any sense on Brexit.

[Scot Dutchy]

The tories are terrified of anything but no deal. Any other deal (as May's) will include the tax directive that comes into force 1-1-19.

[Scot Dutchy]

Never understand some people:

EU nationals deride 'cheery' Home Office UK settlement video

European citizens who want to stay in UK after Brexit face £65 fee

Max Fras, a visiting fellow at the London School of Economics, sarcastically expressed his “deep gratitude” at the opportunity to pay £65 “for the possibility of letting an app as reliable as Southern Rail on a snowy day to decide the future of my existence”.

[Rum]

Your hatred shines through every post on this subject. Not nice.

[Scot Dutchy]

Your hatred shines through every post on this subject. Not nice.

What hatred? Just reposting what people are saying.

[Scot Dutchy]

What was the original purpose of Brexit? To destroy the EU.

The best way to scupper Putin and Trump? Scrap Brexit

The autocratic Russian and US presidents see the UK leaving the EU as a vindication of their worldview


Last week I was browsing through Henry Kissinger’s 2014 book, World Order, when the news broke that Jim Mattis, the US defence secretary, had resigned, sending a shockwave of new uncertainties across Europe. It made these lines from Kissinger all the more striking: “The United States has every reason from history and geopolitics to bolster the European Union and prevent its drifting off in a geopolitical vacuum; the United States, if separated from Europe in politics, economics and defence, would become geopolitically an island off the shores of Eurasia, and Europe itself could turn into an appendage to the reaches of Asia and the Middle East.”

One key sentence in Mattis’s resignation letter pointed to the importance of the US respecting its allies. It read like a final verdict on something Europeans had been dreading ever since Donald Trump’s election but were wary of acknowledging: the utter indifference of this American leader to postwar alliances. A US “separated from Europe” has suddenly become more of a reality.

What has made 2018 a momentous year for Europe is that a simultaneous combination of Trump, Brexit and Vladimir Putin has appeared more clearly – a triple problem for the continent as a whole, Britain included. Thanks to investigative journalism and Robert Mueller’s inquiry we know more about some of the deeper connections beneath the surface. But much has also been in plain sight. This year, Trump’s hostility to the EU (he calls it a “foe”) morphed into a systematic onslaught.

One shocking moment came when Trump’s national security adviser Mike Pompeo gave a speech in Brussels this month lambasting the European project. Meanwhile, both Trump and Putin have made clear they want the Brexit train wreck to run its course. The US president has openly encouraged a no-deal British departure from the EU, and last week Putin mused that Theresa May should “fulfil the will of the people”.

Both Trump and Putin hate the EU.

[rainbow]

The tories are terrified of anything but no deal. Any other deal (as May's) will include the tax directive that comes into force 1-1-19.

The majority of Conservative Party MPs disagree with your view.
They actually took a vote on it.

[Scot Dutchy]

The ones that matter do agree.