The Almighty Unions

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Warren Dew
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Warren Dew » Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:25 pm

Seth wrote:More importantly, every time the minimum wage is imposed or increased, entry-level employees like high school students, and particularly uneducated black youth, lose their jobs because employers aren't willing to pay unskilled employees more than they are worth, so they hire more experienced employees instead.
Actually, more commonly the employers just close up shop. Usually if they were paying much below the new minimum wage, their business model simply doesn't work with higher wages. The high school students and uneducated black youth are out of jobs, yes, but no one is hired instead.
Seth wrote:This is a cart-before-the-horse conundrum. Do wait staff earn their money through tips because that's how they are supposed to earn their money and therefore they can be denied an equal minimum wage, or do they earn their money through tips because the government has FORCED them to do so by discriminating against them with economic policy? I say it's the latter, and the proof is that in most other countries, wait staff are paid the prevailing minimum wage, and tips are gratuities intended to encourage exemplary service. One construction of the term "tips" is "to insure prompt service." Another is the very word "gratuity," which means a payment beyond what is required.
It's the former: wait staff are supposed to earn their money through tips, and that's how the restaurant industry runs most efficiently. Wait staff are kind of like independent contractors in this respect.

The reason wait staff are paid wages and no tips in continental Europe is because those countries have strong socialist traditions; letting better wait people earn more through higher tips would be antiegalitarian, so they're paid more uniform wages.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:19 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
.Morticia. wrote:in America are so powerful they run the whole country

America is so weak that the unions are able to destroy it

I hearded it here.
I, for one, do not believe they wrecked America.

However, for example, Stephen Lerner, either a current or very recently former official with the SEIU union (one of the largest unions in the country) has openly called for steps to be taken to destabilize the banking system, hurt the stock market, and essentially destroy the financial system to obtain his group's desired political end.
Former Official? Well, with the credentials you point out, I'm sure he was snapped up by Lehman Bros. or Citybank?
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:21 am

egbert wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
.Morticia. wrote:in America are so powerful they run the whole country

America is so weak that the unions are able to destroy it

I hearded it here.
I, for one, do not believe they wrecked America.

However, for example, Stephen Lerner, either a current or very recently former official with the SEIU union (one of the largest unions in the country) has openly called for steps to be taken to destabilize the banking system, hurt the stock market, and essentially destroy the financial system to obtain his group's desired political end.
Former Official? Well, with the credentials you point out, I'm sure he was snapped up by Lehman Bros. or Citybank?
He appears to still be a top official at SEIU, although SEIU is being coy about his status, sometimes claiming he's on a "leave of absence." I think they are trying to set up plausible deniability for SEIU ever since Glenn Beck revealed Lerner's seditious, treasonous terrorist intentions.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:23 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:I am fine with unions, mind you - I do not have any issue with a union organizing and having laws allowing for collective bargaining and punishing unfair labor practices. However, when you have public employees, they are usually protected by civil service laws and regulations, and it has traditionally not been the case that they have the right to strike against the public interest.

President Franklin Roosevelt wrote:
All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/even ... tor-unions

Makes sense.
Yeah. I'll bet it made perfect sense to the Black federal and state gov't employees in Roosevelt's time.
What would they have wanted a Union for, with the equal protection they had under the law.

:funny: :funny: :funny: :biggrin:
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by .Morticia. » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:51 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
.Morticia. wrote:it's ok :tup:

I can actually ignore you know
You're ignoring me? But, as I recall, I don't think we've ever locked horns....at least give me the chance to agitate you before you ignore me. :biggrin:

i'm not ignoring you coito, why would you think that

you're a sweetheart



tis that antisocial violent micropenis guy
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by sandinista » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:13 am

.Morticia. wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
.Morticia. wrote:it's ok :tup:

I can actually ignore you know
You're ignoring me? But, as I recall, I don't think we've ever locked horns....at least give me the chance to agitate you before you ignore me. :biggrin:

i'm not ignoring you coito, why would you think that

you're a sweetheart



tis that antisocial violent micropenis guy
'zilla? :biggrin:
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by .Morticia. » Thu Mar 31, 2011 1:36 am

him too
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx

Do you really think it is weakness that yields to temptation? I tell you that there are terrible temptations which it requires strength, strength and courage to yield to. ~ Oscar Wilde

Love Me I'm A Liberal

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:21 am

Anyway, to hell with sterile academic debate as to whether there ought to be unions...

They're fucking here to stay, so deal with it, bloated plutocrats!

See you at the other side of the barricades!
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:43 pm

egbert wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I am fine with unions, mind you - I do not have any issue with a union organizing and having laws allowing for collective bargaining and punishing unfair labor practices. However, when you have public employees, they are usually protected by civil service laws and regulations, and it has traditionally not been the case that they have the right to strike against the public interest.

President Franklin Roosevelt wrote:
All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service. It has its distinct and insurmountable limitations when applied to public personnel management. The very nature and purposes of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. The employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.

Particularly, I want to emphasize my conviction that militant tactics have no place in the functions of any organization of Government employees. Upon employees in the Federal service rests the obligation to serve the whole people, whose interests and welfare require orderliness and continuity in the conduct of Government activities. This obligation is paramount. Since their own services have to do with the functioning of the Government, a strike of public employees manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to prevent or obstruct the operations of Government until their demands are satisfied. Such action, looking toward the paralysis of Government by those who have sworn to support it, is unthinkable and intolerable. It is, therefore, with a feeling of gratification that I have noted in the constitution of the National Federation of Federal Employees the provision that "under no circumstances shall this Federation engage in or support strikes against the United States Government."
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/even ... tor-unions

Makes sense.
Yeah. I'll bet it made perfect sense to the Black federal and state gov't employees in Roosevelt's time.
What would they have wanted a Union for, with the equal protection they had under the law.

:funny: :funny: :funny: :biggrin:
It makes perfect sense, though, doesn't it. At the time, unions discriminated as much as anyone - often blacks were not allowed in the unions. The notion that unions have always been bastions of tolerance is ridiculous.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Mar 31, 2011 12:46 pm

.Morticia. wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
.Morticia. wrote:it's ok :tup:

I can actually ignore you know
You're ignoring me? But, as I recall, I don't think we've ever locked horns....at least give me the chance to agitate you before you ignore me. :biggrin:

i'm not ignoring you coito, why would you think that

you're a sweetheart



tis that antisocial violent micropenis guy
Ah yes. I like to think I have a macropenis, or a megalopenis. :biggrin:

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Thu Mar 31, 2011 6:44 pm

JimC wrote:Anyway, to hell with sterile academic debate as to whether there ought to be unions...

They're fucking here to stay, so deal with it, bloated plutocrats!

See you at the other side of the barricades!
Yeaaahhhh...not so much. Ohio just passed anti-public-sector-union laws. It's going to snowball.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Thu Mar 31, 2011 8:26 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:Anyway, to hell with sterile academic debate as to whether there ought to be unions...

They're fucking here to stay, so deal with it, bloated plutocrats!

See you at the other side of the barricades!
Yeaaahhhh...not so much. Ohio just passed anti-public-sector-union laws. It's going to snowball.
:whisper: There is a world outside Merka...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Thu Mar 31, 2011 11:19 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:Anyway, to hell with sterile academic debate as to whether there ought to be unions...

They're fucking here to stay, so deal with it, bloated plutocrats!

See you at the other side of the barricades!
Yeaaahhhh...not so much. Ohio just passed anti-public-sector-union laws. It's going to snowball.
:whisper: There is a world outside Merka...
Who cares? I'm fine with socialists driving their economies into the ground and trying to steal people's property, because capital flows away from taxes and confiscations. So long as the US can remain a haven for investment by destroying socialism, I'll be perfectly happy watching the rest of the planet descend into proletarian egalitarianism.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by JimC » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:41 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:Anyway, to hell with sterile academic debate as to whether there ought to be unions...

They're fucking here to stay, so deal with it, bloated plutocrats!

See you at the other side of the barricades!
Yeaaahhhh...not so much. Ohio just passed anti-public-sector-union laws. It's going to snowball.
:whisper: There is a world outside Merka...
Who cares? I'm fine with socialists driving their economies into the ground and trying to steal people's property, because capital flows away from taxes and confiscations. So long as the US can remain a haven for investment by destroying socialism, I'll be perfectly happy watching the rest of the planet descend into proletarian egalitarianism.
Fine, as long as you don't expect the rest of the world to live in your libertarian fantasy. You can pretend that all the pragmatic social democracies are actually Marxist regimes, and we will pretend that the USA has got over its infatuation with the John Wayne school of political theory...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm

The idea that the USA had a "John Wayne" political theory is a bunch of crap, anyway. It's no more realistic for you to suggest the US is either libertarian or "John Wayne" style than it is for Seth to suggest that western European socialism is the same as Marxist Communism.

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