Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by piscator » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:16 am

rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:



What if there's a higher return on corporate welfare than alternative approaches?

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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by JimC » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:26 am

Is "higher return" the god to which all must bow down?
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:30 am

piscator wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:



What if there's a higher return on corporate welfare than alternative approaches?
What if there are unicorns?

Do you have any proof that there's a higher return on corporate welfare vs not giving handouts to big companies?
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by mistermack » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:37 pm

Seth wrote:But then again I don't expect somebody else to pay for my medical care. If I need it I'll either ask politely for help or I'll do without
Ask who?
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:10 pm

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:But then again I don't expect somebody else to pay for my medical care. If I need it I'll either ask politely for help or I'll do without
Ask who?
Someone who I think might be willing to voluntarily assist me.
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:26 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:
Um, there's a reason for "structural deficits" in tax receipts that you haven't been able to discern.

You might want to try to figure out why tax rates are being cut. Here's a clue: It has much to do with the inability of the economy and most productive class taxpayers to pay higher taxes and their resultant democratic decision to elect representatives to their democratic form of government who will cut taxes and quit misappropriating their labor and property and quit enslaving them to the demands of the dependent class.

You wanted democracy, well, you're getting it, good and hard. You can't have it both ways, you see. Either you accept the judgment of the collective or you insist on your individual rights, and we know full well that you don't give a fuck about anyone's individual rights other than your own, so the collective gets to tell you what you get.

So shut the fuck up and passively accept the judgment of the collective majority that you aren't worthy of their labor or money. Sucks to be you I guess.

I now await the fallacious argument that somehow "the rich" manage to "buy" the very secret-ballot votes that show that most people are charitable and willing to help, up to a point, but that when their ability to tolerate liberal theft to support the indolent of the dependent class (not the unable to work, the unwilling to work) they simply vote out the liberal twits who keep stealing their money in order to give it to somebody else. This is exactly what I said stems from natural behavior and its entirely predictable human behavior.

You see, most people aren't economic idiots like liberal twits who fallaciously think that "the rich" are taking something from "the poor," which is the typical socialist zero-sum canard that has no basis whatever in fact, and instead they understand that without "the rich" and their capital, and their business acumen that caused them to accumulate and then circulate that capital by creating businesses, products and jobs in the first place, there would be no businesses, no products and no jobs for them. So, rather than rant and rave in fits of juvenile avaricious jealous liberalism against those who are better, smarter and more motivated that the liberal fuckwits who don't understand either human nature or economics, they welcome capitalism and free markets that give them the ability to work, earn and improve their economic situation. And, interestingly, when they succeed economically they are much, much more likely to be willing to part with some of their money to help the less fortunate and disabled.

It's a maxim of mathematics and economics that a society cannot simply tax its way to prosperity, and the fact that you cannot figure that out makes your comments unworthy of consideration.
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:36 pm

piscator wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:
What if there's a higher return on corporate welfare than alternative approaches?
Don't expect rEv to even understand what you just wrote. He's never shown any understanding at all of the reasons that "corporate welfare" (like the GM bailout) occur, much less the return on investment that it can provide.

Which isn't to say that I agree with corporate welfare either, I don't. But I object on Libertarian philosophical principles that hold that the government simply shouldn't be propping up any private business, ever, and that the functions of a truly free market economy will compensate for the demise of unprofitable corporations by germinating new corporations with a better management and investment approach to the market demand they serve.

If GM can't build cars people want to buy at the price people are willing to pay for them for whatever reason, be it bad engineering or simply bad management (like letting unions get their nose under the tent), then GM should cease to exist because if the market demand for cars isn't met by other existing manufacturers someone else (like Elon Musk) will come along with a better, cheaper car and a more efficient and less wasteful management plan to replace GM.

rEv objects on no better argument than that he doesn't like rich people and he's jealous and envious of their success and so he wants to use the Mace of State to take them down, but not for economic reasons, but for purely Marxist destruction of the bourgeoisie merchant class class-warfare ideological reasons that destroy for the sake of destroying and have absolutely nothing even equal in economic benefit, much less superior to capitalism and free markets. He's the very essence of a self-destructive anarchist who doesn't care how many people die as a result of his destructive and insane impulses so long as "the rich" are part of that human carnage...oh, and so long as HE isn't among the victims of course.
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:43 pm

JimC wrote:Is "higher return" the god to which all must bow down?
If you want to fund a welfare state all reason and logic insists it must be. Do you think welfare states pay for themselves? You gotta have the OPM to pay the indigent dependent class, or has that simple economic fact eluded you?

Maximizing the ability of the national economic engine to produce wealth which can be redistributed to the non-producing dependent class is the only sane course of action for any welfare state, not that any welfare state is sane to begin with.

Just look at what happened to the Soviet Union. It valued ideology over economic advancement and people starved and were killed by the tens of millions and eventually it failed economically and was replaces (for a short time) with a capitalist ideology which, unfortunately, turned into a true oligarchic kleptocracy led by Putin. It was on the right course until Putin took power, and if somebody would just kill Putin Russia might have a chance to become the economically stable and advancing capitalist free market economy it tried to be before it was smothered in it's infancy by an insane demagogue and tyrant.

It is times like that when an armed citizenry can save the day, but unfortunately the Russian citizenry were NOT armed, only Putin's thugs and pet military did, so Putin was able to take power without being hung from a light post in Red Square.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:15 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:
Um, there's a reason for "structural deficits" in tax receipts that you haven't been able to discern.
Hmmm, let's see what point about structural deficits I've missed...
You might want to try to figure out why tax rates are being cut. Here's a clue: It has much to do with the inability of the economy and most productive class taxpayers to pay higher taxes and their resultant democratic decision to elect representatives to their democratic form of government who will cut taxes and quit misappropriating their labor and property and quit enslaving them to the demands of the dependent class.
So you agree that we have a structural deficit due to falling tax returns? Good.

Ignored the rest as it had nothing to do with the problem of structural deficits, something which you confusingly agree with me on yet were supposedly going to correct me on... :think: Are you feeling addled again??
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:35 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:
Um, there's a reason for "structural deficits" in tax receipts that you haven't been able to discern.
Hmmm, let's see what point about structural deficits I've missed...
All of them.
So you agree that we have a structural deficit due to falling tax returns? Good.
And how does any rational being solve a deficit? Stop spending when you run out of money. Duh.
Ignored the rest as it had nothing to do with the problem of structural deficits, something which you confusingly agree with me on yet were supposedly going to correct me on... :think: Are you feeling addled again??
Nope, but you are. Democracy got you there so suck it up, Princess, you're just getting democracy good and hard!
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:10 am

What's democracy got to do with the fact that spending more than we take in in tax receipts is a problem? You may as well say "that's physics" for all the information it adds to the debate. :fp:
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by piscator » Thu Jan 28, 2016 5:39 am

JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:I dunno about the healthcare aspect, but as a general principle most countries in the neoliberal west are running structural deficits (that is, tax receipts aren't enough to pay for government spending, because taxes have been slashed so much since the 80's), and need to increase taxes. I now await the fallacious arguments about "other people's money" and the "wealth creators will flee if we raise taxes", and that the answer is to slash more services to the poor and disadvantaged (while totally ignoring the monster elephant in the room - corporate welfare). :bored:

What if there's a higher return on corporate welfare than alternative approaches?

Is "higher return" the god to which all must bow down?

Revo's goal is to generate tax revenue.
Perhaps corporate welfare generates and incentivizes more tax revenue at the end of the day than directly raising corporate taxes?

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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by mistermack » Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:31 pm

Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:But then again I don't expect somebody else to pay for my medical care. If I need it I'll either ask politely for help or I'll do without
Ask who?
Someone who I think might be willing to voluntarily assist me.
So you'd rather sponge off friends and relatives than have a national insurance system.
And you claim that it's for your own self-respect.

Personally, I'd rather die than sponge off my friends or relatives.
But if I lost my nerve and begged them (politely) :D for help, I certainly wouldn't be retaining any self-respect.
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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:59 pm

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:But then again I don't expect somebody else to pay for my medical care. If I need it I'll either ask politely for help or I'll do without
Ask who?
Someone who I think might be willing to voluntarily assist me.
So you'd rather sponge off friends and relatives than have a national insurance system.
A government-run "insurance" system? Absolutely! Government can do NOTHING more efficiently or at lower cost than private enterprise.
And you claim that it's for your own self-respect.
Indeed. And for my respect of the right of others not to be sponged off of by socialist thieves who won't even ask nicely.
Personally, I'd rather die than sponge off my friends or relatives.
That's your choice to make. The point is that requesting assistance from someone requires their consent, which they are free to decline to give. It's that freedom of choice that makes asking for help moral and ethical and taxing others to provide for your needs unethical and immoral.
But if I lost my nerve and begged them (politely) :D for help, I certainly wouldn't be retaining any self-respect.
And where is your self-respect when you commission the machine-gun toting jackbooted thugs of government to go around seizing other people's money to pay for your "national insurance system?"

You have no self-respect and you have no morals. Well, actually you have the morals of a thief and the ethics of killer, like all Socialists.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Sanders to raise taxes, destroy healthcare

Post by Seth » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:03 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:What's democracy got to do with the fact that spending more than we take in in tax receipts is a problem?


Who elected the people who do the spending? Who elected the people who cut the taxes? Do you think "government" is some intelligent alien entity that dropped down from the sky that does all this sua sponte?

Democracy got you the people who authorize the spending and democracy got you the people who cut taxes, so it's democracy that's fucking you in the ass. You love democracy so bend over and smile, princess, because you're getting exactly what you wished for, democracy, good and hard.

Now shut the fuck up.
You may as well say "that's physics" for all the information it adds to the debate. :fp:
Only an idiot needs such simple concepts explained to him.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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