Fascism Pays in the UK

[rainbow]

Home Office staff rewarded with gift vouchers for fighting off asylum cases

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... WEML6619I2

Knowing that one will not be treated fairly in the UK, means that I'll not be travelling there while the present Fascist Regime is in power.

You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that the UK, or any other country, is under some obligation to take in the cast-offs of other nations.

Drivel. I've said nothing of the sort.

What I'm finding objectionable is the idea that government employees can be incentivised to make biased judgements.

If they are not genuine asylum seekers, then certainly they should not be given a place.

Are YOU against the idea of asylum?

If so would you have sent back the Polish, French and Jewish asylum seekers from Germany during WW2?

[cronus]

Nothing against the old notion of asylum where you took refuge in a country close enough by to have shared cultural values, or a small number of 'exotics' being saved as a token gesture in other cases. What is happening today appears closer to mass migration, even panic, rather than peoples standing against the oppressor. With climate change this is best halted now before it turns to pure chaos and a worse socio-economic collapse than the one even I anticipate.

[HomerJay]

Home Office staff rewarded with gift vouchers for fighting off asylum cases

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... WEML6619I2

Knowing that one will not be treated fairly in the UK, means that I'll not be travelling there while the present Fascist Regime is in power.

How do you know you wouldn't be treated fairly?

It's the Tribunals that make the decisions, not the Home Office employees.

80% of asylum applications fail, even after appeal, it doesn't matter, it just shows that a lot of people try it on. A 95% failure rate still wouldn't say anything about the regime.

[PsychoSerenity]

The collapse in the productive capacity under the current global socio-economic paradigm cannot be averted without building for a larger collapse. This is obvious from all the large scale financial mismanagement, debt crisis and keeping interest rates at zero to avoid a hyper-inflationary runaway in every nation with a paper currency. I'm not saying there isn't going to be rebound, even a magnificent one at some point after collapse, but really you've your head in the sand if you think this isn't a ship on course for a iceberg. Getting people out from the UK increases their chances, and those left behind....come the day, and it won't be that long.

Certainly I'd say that economic mismanagement across the globe is a much more serious issue, - various problems of migration are often just a side effect of that, - but actually deflation is a much bigger potential problem than inflation, since it tends to increase wealth disparity and discourage investment.

[cronus]

The collapse in the productive capacity under the current global socio-economic paradigm cannot be averted without building for a larger collapse. This is obvious from all the large scale financial mismanagement, debt crisis and keeping interest rates at zero to avoid a hyper-inflationary runaway in every nation with a paper currency. I'm not saying there isn't going to be rebound, even a magnificent one at some point after collapse, but really you've your head in the sand if you think this isn't a ship on course for a iceberg. Getting people out from the UK increases their chances, and those left behind....come the day, and it won't be that long.

Certainly I'd say that economic mismanagement across the globe is a much more serious issue, - various problems of migration are often just a side effect of that, - but actually deflation is a much bigger potential problem than inflation, since it tends to increase wealth disparity and discourage investment.

When the day comes that things are way out of kilter then the cash machines will stop being loaded, that's the modern world...and how it will end, not sure what you'd call that?

[MrJonno]

Some incentives just by their nature cause corruption, we need to police asylum seekers and car parking but I don't want to see awards for kicking out asylum seekers or handing out tickets

[cronus]

Some incentives just by their nature cause corruption, we need to police asylum seekers and car parking but I don't want to see awards for kicking out asylum seekers or handing out tickets

Doesn't bother me. I don't drive. I'm about as close to a true Englishman as you're ever likely to meet. Fuck 'em all. Those who can't stand the heat don't belong in the kitchen anyway.

[MrJonno]

Some incentives just by their nature cause corruption, we need to police asylum seekers and car parking but I don't want to see awards for kicking out asylum seekers or handing out tickets

Doesn't bother me. I don't drive. I'm about as close to a true Englishman as you're ever likely to meet. Fuck 'em all. Those who can't stand the heat don't belong in the kitchen anyway.

Don't drive either and I'm quite happy to see anyone car crushed and the person's driving license removed if they over park by 1 second however it does have to be 1 second after not 1 second before because the parking guy is on commission

[Seth]

Seth wrote:

...Even the little Dutch kid knew enough to stick his finger in the leaking dike because of the inevitable consequences of not doing so....

Will no-one think of the poor violated lesbians? Those Dutch kids have no right to put their fingers where they're not wanted...

I believe that's "dyke"... Although I did consider spelling it that way to give you the opening...

[Seth]

Home Office staff rewarded with gift vouchers for fighting off asylum cases

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014 ... WEML6619I2

Knowing that one will not be treated fairly in the UK, means that I'll not be travelling there while the present Fascist Regime is in power.

You seem to be laboring under the mistaken impression that the UK, or any other country, is under some obligation to take in the cast-offs of other nations.

Drivel. I've said nothing of the sort.

What I'm finding objectionable is the idea that government employees can be incentivised to make biased judgements.

What's biased about it? The evident government policy is to strictly limit grants of asylum, and it's well known that asylum seekers lie all the time about the actuality of the supposed threat they face in their home countries simply because they want out and have been coached on how to lie in order to gain asylum. Therefore, an incentive directed towards those reviewing asylum applications that encourages them to dig deeper and only grant asylum to those who meet the legal standards is merely enforcing the law.

If they are not genuine asylum seekers, then certainly they should not be given a place.

That's the point of the incentive. The burden is on the asylum-seeker to prove their case, and the obligation of the government agent is to make sure that adequate proofs are given and that the request is not simply a sham, as many such request are.

Are YOU against the idea of asylum?

Depends on the circumstances. For economic reasons, absolutely not. No one benefits by stripping a country of it's workforce by letting them emigrate somewhere else freely. It's their country and they have a duty to stay and make it better for everyone rather than abandoning it and running away, leaving behind those who cannot run and burdening the citizens of the country to which they flee with their care and maintenance.

If so would you have sent back the Polish, French and Jewish asylum seekers from Germany during WW2?

I'd have granted temporary refugee status to mothers with minor children and the sick and elderly and armed and uniformed all other able-bodied adults (men and women alike) and sent them back to their country to fight for their freedom right alongside our troops. At the end of the war I'd have sent everybody else back home.

[JimC]

Seth wrote:

...Even the little Dutch kid knew enough to stick his finger in the leaking dike because of the inevitable consequences of not doing so....

Will no-one think of the poor violated lesbians? Those Dutch kids have no right to put their fingers where they're not wanted...

I believe that's "dyke"... Although I did consider spelling it that way to give you the opening...

You mean give the Dutch kid an opening...

[rainbow]

Are YOU against the idea of asylum?

Depends on the circumstances. For economic reasons, absolutely not. No one benefits by stripping a country of it's workforce by letting them emigrate somewhere else freely. It's their country and they have a duty to stay and make it better for everyone rather than abandoning it and running away, leaving behind those who cannot run and burdening the citizens of the country to which they flee with their care and maintenance.

Not very Libertarian then, are you?

Surely everyone should be allowed to sell their labour to the highest bidder, irrespective of borders.

Don't you believe in Free Trade?

...or does the Free Market only apply when it suits you?

[Seth]

Are YOU against the idea of asylum?

Depends on the circumstances. For economic reasons, absolutely not. No one benefits by stripping a country of it's workforce by letting them emigrate somewhere else freely. It's their country and they have a duty to stay and make it better for everyone rather than abandoning it and running away, leaving behind those who cannot run and burdening the citizens of the country to which they flee with their care and maintenance.

Not very Libertarian then, are you?

Sure I am.

Surely everyone should be allowed to sell their labour to the highest bidder, irrespective of borders.

We're not discussing selling labor, we're discussing asylum-seekers. When an asylum-seeker flees to another country and burdens the citizens of that country with their care and maintenance they are initiating force and fraud because those who are required to labor on their behalf have not voluntarily consented to do so.

Don't you believe in Free Trade?

Sure.

...or does the Free Market only apply when it suits you?

We're not discussing free trade or the free market, so your question is non seqitur.

[rainbow]

Surely everyone should be allowed to sell their labour to the highest bidder, irrespective of borders.

We're not discussing selling labor, we're discussing asylum-seekers. When an asylum-seeker flees to another country and burdens the citizens of that country with their care and maintenance they are initiating force and fraud because those who are required to labor on their behalf have not voluntarily consented to do so.

If they are economic asylum seekers, then they are crossing the border to sell their labour. There is no assumption that they will be entitled to welfare, since they aren't.
Answer the question.
As a "Libertarian", why do you feel they should not be free to do so?

[Seth]

Surely everyone should be allowed to sell their labour to the highest bidder, irrespective of borders.

We're not discussing selling labor, we're discussing asylum-seekers. When an asylum-seeker flees to another country and burdens the citizens of that country with their care and maintenance they are initiating force and fraud because those who are required to labor on their behalf have not voluntarily consented to do so.

If they are economic asylum seekers, then they are crossing the border to sell their labour.

Er, the point is that there is no such thing as economic asylum.

There is no assumption that they will be entitled to welfare, since they aren't.

They still burden the host nation. Go visit the refugee camps full of refugees from Sudan and ask how much it costs, then get back to me.

Answer the question.
As a "Libertarian", why do you feel they should not be free to do so?

They should be...in their own nation. If they wish to emigrate in order to seek their fortune in another country, then they can only do so under Libertarian principles if they do not impose involuntary burdens on the people of the country they wish to emigrate to in the process. Any involuntary burdens.

If they can manage it without imposing involuntary burdens, then I'm fine with them becoming productive members of a Libertarian society. But they can't expect to be granted any leeway in being productive. Good intentions are not sufficient, and unless they have a sponsor who is willing to be responsible for their support until they get on their own feet, then that burden may not be imposed on others against their will.