Wolves At Large

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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by piscator » Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:14 am

mistermack wrote:What you say sounds reasonable, but it's possible you underestimate just how efficient the hunters and trappers of old actually were. The government ran a very effective campaign to eradicate the wolf, and paid a hefty bounty for each one killed.
I was quite surprised when I found this site : http://www.wolfweb.com/history2.html I didn't know just how determined they were to kill every wolf.
They managed to exterminate the wolf in most states, but they don't specifically mention Alaska. They obviously didn't succeed completely in Alaska, but they seem to have partly succeeded, as far as the Kenai Wolf is concerned.
When you say that they would have killed all the other wolves too, well, they tried to do just that, but didn't get them all.
So it's ordinary non ''alces'' wolves that have expanded back into Kenai.

You're confusing Alaska with other parts of the US where cattle and sheep ranchers live. Alaska is not "Most states", particularly wrt the wolf. Unlike other places, there's never been a concerted effort here to eliminate wolves.




That website says that it was poisoning with strychnine that was most efficient. I should imagine that that was true.
The book I mentioned, I must have read in the 1960s, and he was catagoric that the wolf was extinct in the Kenai peninsula at the time. I don't know if that was true.

Neither do I, since the Kenai wolf was only identified as a subspecies in 1944, and it was the late 60s before snowmachines (snowmobiles) became widespread.
I think it's a lot more likely that some visiting biologist wanted the notoriety before he scurried back to New York, or Miami, or wherever, when his funding ran out.


Anyway, I just looked online again, and wikipedia actually has a page on the Kenai subspecies, and they say that it's PROBABLY extinct, and blame organised hunting and poisoning. If you search for Kenai wolf, it doesn't come up, it's actually called the Kenai Peninsula Wolf : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenai_Peninsula_wolf
The dna of the current wolves is the same as for the rest of Alaska, so there is no detected relic of the original Peninsula wolf.
Whether they were genuinely extinct or not would be hard to prove, as you could never prove for sure that some didn't live on, but there were no reports of wolves until the recent repopulation. But the dna evidence says that they went extinct.

I just looked myself, and the fact is that there were very few adequate wildlife censuses done here before airplanes and snowmachines, for reasons I've touched on. Moreover, during the gold rushes, there was Seward, and there was Hope. In 1900, there were 21 people in Cooper Landing. There was no Soldotna or Homer, and Kenai was a trading post called Ft St. Nichols that served a total population of less than 1000 Dena'ina. Call it a human population of maybe 2000, who supposedly spent their winters ranging far and wide packing strychnine in single-minded pursuit of wolves. And who, BTW, were so effective they nearly wiped them out in 20 years?
Foot travel through the Kenai Peninsula is pretty limited. There was the Iditarod Trail, and the Indian fish camp trail along parts of the Kenai River. Walking through the woods here in straight lines is simply not an option. There was probably the occasional Swede or Norwegian who carved himself some tele skis. There were some dogsleds. There were snowshoes. Leave a trail, and it's absolutely brutal around here.

I'm just having a tough time buying into the official narrative. I think it was likely concocted from a barstool by some decidedly unFarley Mowat-like researchers.

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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by mistermack » Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:16 am

I don't think that they were identified and claimed as a living sub-species in 1944 by Edward Goldman from living wolves, but from photos, bones and pelts, and from accounts of local people.
That's normal. They do a similar thing with dinosaurs. You present the evidence, and claim a new species.
It looks like they went extinct around 1900, or around the time of the gold rush.
Very few people got rich from finding gold, but you could make some money from animal pelts.

Goldman just took the evidence available in 1944, and claimed it as a sub-species. Whether there was still the odd living wolf skulking about, or they were completely extinct, will probably never be proved. Although wolves are easier than most to detect, as they are pretty vocal. You would think the locals would know.
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See if I got this right...

Post by piscator » Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:21 am

So we're supposed to walk out on our back decks amid the constant howls of wolves and take an accurate taxonomic census, you know, like the old sourdoughs?

And we have a whole subspecies of vestigial Pleistocene megafauna supposedly wiped out in 4 or 5 years by a handful of foothardy cheechakos with guns and strychnine in their leisure time from mining gold?

Certainly sounds like the Northern Lights were running wild in the Land of the Midnight Sun!



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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by mistermack » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:07 pm

I'm certainly with you on them not being a subspecies. If the guy never had live wolves to study, and measure, and take dna from, it's pushing it to claim a subspecies on the kind of evidence that would have been available.
A new species, yes, if the differences were so big that they could never have interbred with other wolves. But a subspecies is a fuzzy claim anyway, and without live examples, it's very dubious.

I'm also very dubious about the claims of how big they were too. Size is nearly always exaggerated, when people are making historical claims about how big animals were. I very much doubt if they were anywhere near the top dimensions claimed on the wikipedia page.
If there was a skeleton, it might be some sort of proof. But skins are a poor guide, as they get stretched.

A wolf that is four and a half feet tall at the shoulder is beyond credibility. That's an animal that could look most people straight in the eye, while sat on it's ass.
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In the timbers of Fennerio...

Post by piscator » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:48 pm

I think Goldman just trolled the fuck out us... :cheers:




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Re: In the timbers of Fennerio...

Post by mistermack » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:26 pm

piscator wrote:I think Goldman just trolled the fuck out us... :cheers:
Yeh. Could have done with Gawdzilla on that one. He would have seen through it a bit quicker, I guess.

But maybe Goldman was trolled himself. Those old-time trappers and backwoodsmen can spin a pretty convincing yarn.
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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by piscator » Sat Nov 30, 2013 11:28 pm

Is there any record of Goldman ever visiting Alaska? :shifty:

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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:31 am

Tyrannical wrote:I'm all for reintroducing wolves to an urban environment, massive tax payer savings combined with a ready food supply for the wolves is a win win situation.
They are called "coyotes" and they already inhabit the urban environment nearly everywhere in the US, including New York City and Washington, D.C.

And they are probably smarter and better adapted to city life than wolves are likely to be.

Out west we can't kill them fast enough to keep the population in check except very locally. They are highly prolific and very keen observers of their threat matrix.

They are starting at the bottom of the urban food chain with small rat-dogs and cats, and a few have tried out small children (one at a ski resort), and a couple of them near Boulder have actually attacked adults...to the point the authorities had to close the trail system and go hunt them down.
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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:35 am

Făkünamę wrote:Yar. Forest fires are regenerative for the local ecology. Go check out a fire site one year after. Luscious greens for Moose, Deer, and other herbivores, that wasn't there before.
I was in Yellowstone for the big fires in '88 and even then I laughed in the face of the ignorami who complained that the park was being "destroyed" by wildfire. Went back last year and was delighted by the results.
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Re: Wolves At Large

Post by mistermack » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:42 pm

piscator wrote:Is there any record of Goldman ever visiting Alaska? :shifty:
Good question. No mention of it in his wiki page, anyway.

He was very keen on clocking up new species and sub-species. But I suppose at a time when everyone was happily exterminating them, that wasn't so bad. Maybe he simply relied on the work of some naturalist who DID visit Alaska.
Or maybe he went there. He got about a bit, going on his wiki page.

He was a product of the age I guess.
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