Why us furrrners get upset at some US foreign policy etc

[Ian]

Lol. Did you miss the head of the NSA lying last year?

No, but ask me how much I really care. If Congress has a problem, they'll take it up with him.

Jeez, nobody understands intelligence at all. The public demands that they track down a needle in a haystack before one causes the next 9/11, and then the public is shocked to find the NSA glancing at a haystack. And actually inspecting a needle? That still requires a warrant. Telephony metadata... cry me a river. But private companies know mountains about exactly who you are and where you spend your time and money. I don't worry about Big Brother, I worry about Big Business

[FBM]

According to the story, the plane was diverted because of a rumor, and nobody identified the source of the rumor. It could have been Russia itself.

[pErvinalia]

@Seth... They are not obliged to do anything (outside of international obligations - which they tend to follow loosely anyway). But don't be surprised when the rest of the world hates some aspects of US policy that affect them. And yes, people do get surprised, including our good Coit here. In my view the US should be working towards a more fairer world, not only because that is the right thing to do, but also for their own self-interest when they are no longer a (or the sole) superpower.

[Svartalf]

Take it up with France, Portugal, etc.

I find that report hard to believe... Deny our airspace to a friendly head of state on mere suspiscion that he might be giving political asylum to a wanted criminal, that we pre"cisely don't want and that has done a bad turn to a party we currently are angry at... that seems exceedingly weird.

[Svartalf]

Not especially.

Mostly because you're ranting about an "alleged" thing.

In the real world yes. In fairy land, the US is like pristine snow and doesn't influence foreign nations. What a crock. Are you seriously trying to suggest the US had nothing to do with France and Portugal's decision? Why the fuck would they care otherwise?

No, but I would suggest that perhaps France, Portugal and the twenty or so (so far) countries that have turned down Snowden's asylum request might be doing so for reasons other than the big, bad US intimidating and/or threatening all of them. Maybe they have some appreciation that he is, in fact, a felon. And maybe they don't want the world looking too much at the faxt that the US intelligence community is more transparent than any other major power on earth including theirs.

Nah, no reasons for them to care, no self-interest at all. The big, bad US must've threatened them all.

Actually, officially we haven't turned down any requests because none has gone through channels.

[pErvinalia]

Lol. Did you miss the head of the NSA lying last year?

No, but ask me how much I really care. If Congress has a problem, they'll take it up with him.

Unless congress is bought an owned.

Jeez, nobody understands intelligence at all. The public demands that they track down a needle in a haystack before one causes the next 9/11, and then the public is shocked to find the NSA glancing at a haystack. And actually inspecting a needle? That still requires a warrant. Telephony metadata... cry me a river. But private companies know mountains about exactly who you are and where you spend your time and money. I don't worry about Big Brother, I worry about Big Business

Why the secrecy and lying then? Why don't they just be honest about it? The state is overstepping its bounds, not only in this area but others. It's a trend and a pattern. Information is the new commodity as the basis for which revolution/wars will be waged.

[Seth]

@Seth... They are not obliged to do anything (outside of international obligations - which they tend to follow loosely anyway). But don't be surprised when the rest of the world hates some aspects of US policy that affect them.

They're going to hate us anyway, so who cares how much they carp? It was that Marxist fuck Evo Morales after all. I'd have just shot the plan down on principle. The only good Marxist is a dead Marxist.

And yes, people do get surprised, including our good Coit here. In my view the US should be working towards a more fairer world, not only because that is the right thing to do, but also for their own self-interest when they are no longer a (or the sole) superpower.

We are. One of the things we have to do to accomplish that is extirpate Marxism and Marxists, and traitors.

[Warren Dew]

Ok, well putting aside my butthurt, it's still an incredible act to interfere with a diplomatic flight.

Yes. France and Portugal ought to be shunned internationally for this.

But seriously, why are you blaming the U.S. here? It's something France could easily have stood up to the U.S. on. That they helped the U.S. possibly corner a political dissident for, probably, future concessions on selling their wine or something, is a fault of France, not of the U.S.

Ok.

And meanwhile, the NSA director has "apologised" for lying to congress. The hunt for his arrest must be really heating up there, eh?

Many would argue that the State has overstepped its bounds, and the zealotry they've shown for Assange, Manning and Snowden while letting heads of spy agencies arguably break the laws and lie to congress is too much.

The State has undoubtedly overstepped its bounds with all the domestic spying. With respect to the diplomatic flight, though, the problem is not so much the U.S. as with European nations all too eager to help suppress freedom.

[Warren Dew]

Lol. Did you miss the head of the NSA lying last year?

No, but ask me how much I really care. If Congress has a problem, they'll take it up with him.

Jeez, nobody understands intelligence at all.

And yet, back in the Reagan years, intelligence folks were perfectly willing to give an honest, "I can't talk about that". And maybe doing that, instead of being willing to lie to Congress and the American people, is part of why there weren't the massive leaks back then that there are now.

[laklak]

Well, the French are, historically speaking, U.S. lapdogs and do whatever we want them to do, right? Basically a client state, eh? Might as well be the 51st state, what with all their sucking up to the U.S., sending us that big statue. The only country whose dick they suck harder than the U.S. is the U.K. Am I right, or what?

[pErvinalia]

Ok, well putting aside my butthurt, it's still an incredible act to interfere with a diplomatic flight.

Yes. France and Portugal ought to be shunned internationally for this.

But seriously, why are you blaming the U.S. here? It's something France could easily have stood up to the U.S. on. That they helped the U.S. possibly corner a political dissident for, probably, future concessions on selling their wine or something, is a fault of France, not of the U.S.

I really struggle to believe that this wasn't done under the request of the US authorities. It's been reported (although, unsourced) that they have been pressuring countries to not grant asylum to Snowden. And witnessing the zealotry that they have shown in regard to Snowden, and Assange and Manning before him, I really find it hard to believe that they are not pushing as hard as they can "diplomatically" to get this guy. After all, if they allow first Assange, and then Snowden to escape their net, that's a trendline and will embolden future whistleblowers/spies/whatever to take a crack. If they US can nail one of these guys hard, then they will surely send a clear message that you don't cross the State and hope to get away with it.

Ok.

And meanwhile, the NSA director has "apologised" for lying to congress. The hunt for his arrest must be really heating up there, eh?

Many would argue that the State has overstepped its bounds, and the zealotry they've shown for Assange, Manning and Snowden while letting heads of spy agencies arguably break the laws and lie to congress is too much.

The State has undoubtedly overstepped its bounds with all the domestic spying. With respect to the diplomatic flight, though, the problem is not so much the U.S. as with European nations all too eager to help suppress freedom.

[/quote]

I've got no problem criticising them either. But the biggest force in the world in the propaganda effort is the US.

[pErvinalia]

Well, the French are, historically speaking, U.S. lapdogs and do whatever we want them to do, right? Basically a client state, eh? Might as well be the 51st state, what with all their sucking up to the U.S., sending us that big statue. The only country whose dick they suck harder than the U.S. is the U.K. Am I right, or what?

FREEDOM FRIES!!

[FBM]

Well, the French are, historically speaking, U.S. lapdogs and do whatever we want them to do, right? Basically a client state, eh? Might as well be the 51st state, what with all their sucking up to the U.S., sending us that big statue. The only country whose dick they suck harder than the U.S. is the U.K. Am I right, or what?

[JimC]

This is why some of us get upset at the US, even though we aren't citizens of it. The US has a disproportionate affect on foreign countries sovereignty. When the US sneezes, the rest of us cower in fear (or something like that...)

Er, they all know on which side of the bread their butter is. We just asked nicely, and our friends decided to do what in their sovereign judgment was the prudent thing to do that's in the best interests of their nation.

Dunno why you would think that the US is obliged to continue to be nice to any nation that would harbor a traitor like him.

I'd go as far as to say that any country that gives Snowden asylum is committing an act of war against the United States, given what he knows about our national security infrastructure, and that if we can locate him we should stuff a Hellfire missile up his ass, no matter where he is.

Gotta love the Obama drone program...it's MADE for this sort of thing.

I appreciate this post, Seth. From all I can see, this is a raw and honest answer to rEv's OP, with no spin...

This, however, is little by little the increasing picture of the US that many in the world (including former allies) have today. And I suspect that many US citizens simply do not understand the increasing fear and distrust of their country by people far removed from Russia, China or islamic jihadists...

[Warren Dew]

I really struggle to believe that this wasn't done under the request of the US authorities. It's been reported (although, unsourced) that they have been pressuring countries to not grant asylum to Snowden. And witnessing the zealotry that they have shown in regard to Snowden, and Assange and Manning before him, I really find it hard to believe that they are not pushing as hard as they can "diplomatically" to get this guy. After all, if they allow first Assange, and then Snowden to escape their net, that's a trendline and will embolden future whistleblowers/spies/whatever to take a crack. If they US can nail one of these guys hard, then they will surely send a clear message that you don't cross the State and hope to get away with it.

Of course it was done at the request of the U.S. However, a request is just that: a request. It can be turned down, and those who don't like how the U.S. behaves should get used to turning the requests down.