Obese Man to Sue NHS for letting him get fat.

[Coito ergo sum]

He tried to commit suicide three times...wouldn't that be a flag the guy needed some therapy or counselling?

It's not clear to me from the article that he was not provided therapy.

[mistermack]

He tried to commit suicide three times...wouldn't that be a flag the guy needed some therapy or counselling?

Or a lift to beachy head? I would personally recommend the Cliffs of Moher in Ireland. You can drive right up to the top. And he would have a lovely view as he wobbled off the edge.
.

[maiforpeace]

He tried to commit suicide three times...wouldn't that be a flag the guy needed some therapy or counselling?

It's not clear to me from the article that he was not provided therapy.

This would be the argument that would seem to me to be the crux to his lawsuit...that he didn't get the psychological counselling he needed, whether in general and for the suicide attempts.

While I don't disagree that he ate way too many calories, I am going to start taking issue with your claims (which you have made numerous times in the McDonald's thread) that the key to losing weight is simply eating less calories or burning more calories. I can't go into great detail now as I am still reading the book, but there was, and is some good science that shows this is not the case.

Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It

[Coito ergo sum]

He tried to commit suicide three times...wouldn't that be a flag the guy needed some therapy or counselling?

It's not clear to me from the article that he was not provided therapy.

This would be the argument that would seem to me to be the crux to his lawsuit...that he didn't get the psychological counselling he needed, whether in general and for the suicide attempts.

While I don't disagree that he ate way too many calories, I am going to start taking issue with your claims (which you have made numerous times in the McDonald's thread) that the key to losing weight is simply eating less calories or burning more calories. I can't go into great detail now as I am still reading the book, but there was, and is some good science that shows this is not the case.

Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It

I would love to know what the argument is that says If you eat fewer calories than you need you can physically gain weight. I mean - it's physics, chemistry and biology. Bodies don't grow via magic. A person can only grow if the body takes in food. Your body uses food for fuel - it chemically burns the food in the stomach/digestive tract and the energy is delivered to the cells. Excess energy that is not burned by the body, used to make non-fat cells, crapped out, sweated out, cried out, spit out or pissed out is stored as fat.

There is no way to gain weight - no way - if the body intakes fewer calories than it needs to maintain itself. It's a physical impossibility.

The body just can't create fat out of nothing. If it doesn't go in a person's mouth, it can't become fat. What am I missing?

One pound of fat is the equivalent of 3500 calories. To gain a pound of fat, you must consume 3500 calories in excess of the calories required to maintain your weight. To lose a pound of fat you must create a calorie deficit (preferably over time, such as a 4 days to one week) equal to 3500 calories.
That "maintenance point" differs person-to-person dependant upon your height, weight, age, general activity level, and muscle composition. While a maintenance requirement may be 1800 calories per day for one individual, it may be 2800 calories per day for another Our bodies do not discriminate against excess calories from fatty sources, versus excess calories from nutritional sources. Excess is excess! It is most recommended that intake consist of healthy sources because a body requires certain amounts of specific nutrients found in those healthy sources.

[mistermack]

I'm not making any kind of point here, just asking a question.
Do we shit any calories? Or does every human digest and use every available calorie in their food?
Some people seem to perform miracles. They eat like a horse and never put on weight.
Do they just lose more energy in heat? I can't see how they can do that, unless their skin temperature is much higher than others.
.

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not making any kind of point here, just asking a question.
Do we shit any calories? Or does every human digest and use every available calorie in their food?
Some people seem to perform miracles. They eat like a horse and never put on weight.
Do they just lose more energy in heat? I can't see how they can do that, unless their skin temperature is much higher than others.
.

Yes, calories are shat, cried, sweated, spit and pissed. Calories "out" includes those burned and used by the body, and those excreted, defecated, urinated, etc.

More calories in than calories out = weight gain. That weight can be muscle, bone, fat, etc.

As for some people eating like a horse and performing miracles - it's not miraculous. It's chemistry and biology.

People's metabolic rates can differ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basal_metabolic_rate People with higher metabolic rates burn more calories faster, all else being equal.

Also, sometimes people who claim they aren't eating too much aren't accurately accounting for the amount they really eat. A person who doesn't exercise and who eats 3 sensible meals totally 2000 calories in a day, but adds five coca-colas, 3 coffees with loads of cream and sugar, a big glass of orange juice, and a bowl of ice cream while watching t.v. most likely is consuming too many calories.

[cowiz]

I'm not making any kind of point here, just asking a question.
Do we shit any calories? Or does every human digest and use every available calorie in their food?
Some people seem to perform miracles. They eat like a horse and never put on weight.
Do they just lose more energy in heat? I can't see how they can do that, unless their skin temperature is much higher than others.
.

Yes, calories are shat, cried, sweated, spit and pissed. Calories "out" includes those burned and used by the body, and those excreted, defecated, urinated, etc.

More calories in than calories out = weight gain. That weight can be muscle, bone, fat, etc.

So shitting a lot is a good weight loss plan

[GreyICE]

I would love to know what the argument is that says If you eat fewer calories than you need you can physically gain weight. I mean - it's physics, chemistry and biology. Bodies don't grow via magic. A person can only grow if the body takes in food. Your body uses food for fuel - it chemically burns the food in the stomach/digestive tract and the energy is delivered to the cells. Excess energy that is not burned by the body, used to make non-fat cells, crapped out, sweated out, cried out, spit out or pissed out is stored as fat.

There is no way to gain weight - no way - if the body intakes fewer calories than it needs to maintain itself. It's a physical impossibility.

Check it out! You found the problem immediately and then ran past it.

If your body cannot produce the energy needed to survive, what happens? Rhetorical question. You die. This isn't an evolutionary advantage. So what does the body do? Reduce calorie usage. What's the number one calorie user in the entire body? The brain.

This occurs parallel with the weight loss. Sensible weight loss is not just about 'eating a whole lot less.'

[Coito ergo sum]

I'm not making any kind of point here, just asking a question.
Do we shit any calories? Or does every human digest and use every available calorie in their food?
Some people seem to perform miracles. They eat like a horse and never put on weight.
Do they just lose more energy in heat? I can't see how they can do that, unless their skin temperature is much higher than others.
.

Yes, calories are shat, cried, sweated, spit and pissed. Calories "out" includes those burned and used by the body, and those excreted, defecated, urinated, etc.

More calories in than calories out = weight gain. That weight can be muscle, bone, fat, etc.

So shitting a lot is a good weight loss plan

That depends - a weight loss plan should take into account all calories in, and all calories out. Shitting is only one factor.

A good weight loss plan involves an initial assessment wherein one calculates one's body fat percentage, and sets a goal weight/body fat percentage, and estimates the amount he or she wants to lose. Then, one ought to get a good estimate of basal metabolic rate, and determine a reasonable amount of exercise that the person will be able to engage in. Then the amount of food consumed during the day can be determined based on basal metabolic rate and additional calories burned during exercise. This can be further tweeked over time. One should generally create a caloric deficit of around 250 to 500 calories per day, which would result in about 2-4 pounds of weight loss per month. More than that can be unhealthy for a variety of reasons.

If you can increase the number of calories shat, then, of course that helps reach one's goal caloric deficit.

[Coito ergo sum]

I would love to know what the argument is that says If you eat fewer calories than you need you can physically gain weight. I mean - it's physics, chemistry and biology. Bodies don't grow via magic. A person can only grow if the body takes in food. Your body uses food for fuel - it chemically burns the food in the stomach/digestive tract and the energy is delivered to the cells. Excess energy that is not burned by the body, used to make non-fat cells, crapped out, sweated out, cried out, spit out or pissed out is stored as fat.

There is no way to gain weight - no way - if the body intakes fewer calories than it needs to maintain itself. It's a physical impossibility.

Check it out! You found the problem immediately and then ran past it.

If your body cannot produce the energy needed to survive, what happens? Rhetorical question. You die. This isn't an evolutionary advantage. So what does the body do? Reduce calorie usage. What's the number one calorie user in the entire body? The brain.

This occurs parallel with the weight loss. Sensible weight loss is not just about 'eating a whole lot less.'

I didn't say it was. It's about a rational caloric deficit. Where did I advocate starvation?

One thing is for sure, more calories in than out equals gain. The material and energy doesn't just magically disappear - the body has to do something with every calorie consumed (whether using it for metabolic function, storing it as fat, sweating it out, shitting it or pissing it, etc). There isn't a debate about it. It's chemistry/biology.

This is not new - this is not controversial at all. Talk to any fitness athlete. They have their metabolic rates and caloric intake nailed down to almost mathematical precision, to the point where they know to the ounce how much food they ought to eat. It can be that precise. That's not to suggest that the average person can be or ought to be that precise - to create a reasonable caloric deficit one just needs basic approximates. I've seen it happen. I know it works, and if you talk to a nutritionist, dietician or personal trainer, they will tell you that I am correct.

[PsychoSerenity]

While obviously the physical explanation of calories in vs out does stand, when dealing with people you have to also accept that there are treatable psychological issues that are often the route of the problem (though apparently not in dev's case; he just lurves de cake ). Also, with people getting so fat that they can't get out of bed to feed themselves, a lot of the responsibility shifts to those feeding them, as in this case I also saw linked in the sun where the woman died in hospital after her family where continually smuggling in buckets of KFC for her. Having said all that, suing the NHS is a stupid thing to do.

[Cunt]

I put on a few pounds over Christmas, but so far approximately 45 pounds - I have to lose the same again.

Fucking great, devogue! I think I will try to catch up. I am 265 and should be about 170-180 (lbs that is)

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So shitting a lot is a good weight loss plan

A male prostitute I knew in my youth had lost over a hundred pounds by eating a lot of laxatives. I wouldn't recommend it, but it worked for him. He kept the weight off through his whole professional career (about 10 years) then pudged up a bit after 'retiring'.

Puking works, too. Neither is a very good answer, though.

Have you added much exercise, devogue? I only seem to drop 20 or so by eating reasonable portions, then more comes off if I shake my legs more...

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[charlou]

I would love to know what the argument is that says If you eat fewer calories than you need you can physically gain weight. I mean - it's physics, chemistry and biology. Bodies don't grow via magic. A person can only grow if the body takes in food. Your body uses food for fuel - it chemically burns the food in the stomach/digestive tract and the energy is delivered to the cells. Excess energy that is not burned by the body, used to make non-fat cells, crapped out, sweated out, cried out, spit out or pissed out is stored as fat.

There is no way to gain weight - no way - if the body intakes fewer calories than it needs to maintain itself. It's a physical impossibility.

Check it out! You found the problem immediately and then ran past it.

If your body cannot produce the energy needed to survive, what happens? Rhetorical question. You die. This isn't an evolutionary advantage. So what does the body do? Reduce calorie usage. What's the number one calorie user in the entire body? The brain.

This occurs parallel with the weight loss. Sensible weight loss is not just about 'eating a whole lot less.'

bdoing! BINGO.

[Cunt]

I would love to know what the argument is that says If you eat fewer calories than you need you can physically gain weight. I mean - it's physics, chemistry and biology. Bodies don't grow via magic. A person can only grow if the body takes in food. Your body uses food for fuel - it chemically burns the food in the stomach/digestive tract and the energy is delivered to the cells. Excess energy that is not burned by the body, used to make non-fat cells, crapped out, sweated out, cried out, spit out or pissed out is stored as fat.

There is no way to gain weight - no way - if the body intakes fewer calories than it needs to maintain itself. It's a physical impossibility.

Check it out! You found the problem immediately and then ran past it.

If your body cannot produce the energy needed to survive, what happens? Rhetorical question. You die. This isn't an evolutionary advantage. So what does the body do? Reduce calorie usage. What's the number one calorie user in the entire body? The brain.

This occurs parallel with the weight loss. Sensible weight loss is not just about 'eating a whole lot less.'

bdoing! BINGO.

To hell with your BINGO, my friend. As a fat guy, and friend to many fatties, the largest obstacle to weight loss is putting too much weight in (VIA the mouth). Activity can be increased in most cases, but the first, largest factor is eating like a fucking fool.

If an obese person simply ate a healthy diet (with attention to portions AND nutrition) and did NOTHING ELSE, their weight would drop. Real simple.

Sure there are factors which will make fatty eat too much, but the plain fact is that overeating is the largest problem.

[Coito ergo sum]

I would love to know what the argument is that says If you eat fewer calories than you need you can physically gain weight. I mean - it's physics, chemistry and biology. Bodies don't grow via magic. A person can only grow if the body takes in food. Your body uses food for fuel - it chemically burns the food in the stomach/digestive tract and the energy is delivered to the cells. Excess energy that is not burned by the body, used to make non-fat cells, crapped out, sweated out, cried out, spit out or pissed out is stored as fat.

There is no way to gain weight - no way - if the body intakes fewer calories than it needs to maintain itself. It's a physical impossibility.

Check it out! You found the problem immediately and then ran past it.

If your body cannot produce the energy needed to survive, what happens? Rhetorical question. You die. This isn't an evolutionary advantage. So what does the body do? Reduce calorie usage. What's the number one calorie user in the entire body? The brain.

This occurs parallel with the weight loss. Sensible weight loss is not just about 'eating a whole lot less.'

bdoing! BINGO.

How is that a "bingo?" I didn't run past anything, and I hadn't suggested that weight loss is just about eating a whole lot less. What I wrote was 100% accurate, and I still don't see where you or anyone else has established that one can take in more than goes out and not gain weight, and how one can take in less than goes out and not lose weight. Are you really disputing me on that?

I was very clear about the relationship of basal metabolic rate to the bodies calorie burning process. Of course the body can at times reduce calorie usage. That's why starvation diets don't work well - the body starts shutting down, it damages health and then a person can't stick to the diet and will start eating excessive calories. However, if they did continue to starve themselves, then they would lose weight.

In order lose weight in a healthy and reasonably sustainable manner, you calculate your basal metabolic rate (or estimate it), then you factor in additional calorie burning estimates due to exercise. Then you determine an optimal caloric intake such that you will create a caloric deficit for the day, so that each day you take in less than your body needs and excretes. So, if your basal metabolic rate is 2000 calories a day, and you take in 1500 calories a day, then your caloric deficit of 500 a day should cause you to lose weight at about a 1 pound a week clip (3500 calories equals about a pound). If you work out and burn calories in addition to that, you can increase the caloric deficit and lose more weight. There are variables that will cause this to be not a perfect, mathematical certainty - like variability in metabolic rate, muscle development due to workouts causing "weight" to be gained in muscle even while it is being lost in fat, and some other things.

But, the underlying concept - calories and calories out is sound - not only is it sound - it is bedrock science based on the laws of conservation of matter and energy. The body can't get fat without taking the molecules that in the food and making them into fat. If you don't take in enough calories where the body has more than it needs, then it will not generally make more fat because it won't have molecules available to make the fat. It can't create new matter. Your body only has the food forked into one's face to work with.