Re: Unarmed teen shooting: the debate trickles on...

[Coito ergo sum]

Like the way people think the jury system is a fair way to decide a person guilt or not. I trust the average member of the public to decide on a persons fate in a courtroom as much as I trust them to have a firearm.

Give me professional judges and if there is a jury it should be one with proper legal training not with people who basically will judge someone on whether they look the type. Most European countries don't use public juries alas the UK is the exception

And, of course what "most European countries" do is always best. Case closed.

Here in the US, juries are the right of the defendant and the defendant may waive that right anytime. Prosecutors don't want juries, and if the defendant waives the right to a jury trial, the prosecutor will invariably not demand one. Defendant's generally want juries.

One might be able to puzzle out why that might be.

[Clinton Huxley]

The Govt already wants to hold secret trials in certain cases. I'm sure scrapping the jury system will be next. Then judges will decide the fate of the accused, on their own, behind closed doors. Next step - scrap the judges and allow the Home Secretary to decide. Huzzzah!

[Coito ergo sum]

The Govt already wants to hold secret trials in certain cases. I'm sure scrapping the jury system will be next. Then judges will decide the fate of the accused, on their own, behind closed doors. Next step - scrap the judges and allow the Home Secretary to decide. Huzzzah!

What could possibly go wrong?

What do Yerpeeins even need of a justice system at all? Yerpeein criminals are so honorable and forthright, that before committing a crime they promptly turns themselves in for proper punishment preemptive rehabilitation. This Merkin concept of having to arrest criminals and prosecute them is not something with which enlightened Yerpeeins ought to sully themselves.

[mistermack]

Like the way people think the jury system is a fair way to decide a person guilt or not. I trust the average member of the public to decide on a persons fate in a courtroom as much as I trust them to have a firearm.

Give me professional judges and if there is a jury it should be one with proper legal training not with people who basically will judge someone on whether they look the type. Most European countries don't use public juries alas the UK is the exception

The jury system IS better. IF your population can be relied upon to put aside prejudices, like racial and sexual and religious and political ones. And if they have common sense.

That's why it often fails in the US.
But judges are not the answer in every case. Now and again, someone will be prosecuted by the state, who perhaps HAS technically committed a crime, but who should never have been prosecuted.

Some of the mercy killings come into this catagory, but there are loads of other examples.
A jury would probably do the right thing in these cases, but a judge would feel bound to follow the letter of the law.

So in the UK, I think the jury system is best. Elsewhere, it's not.

[maiforpeace]

Like the way people think the jury system is a fair way to decide a person guilt or not. I trust the average member of the public to decide on a persons fate in a courtroom as much as I trust them to have a firearm.

Give me professional judges and if there is a jury it should be one with proper legal training not with people who basically will judge someone on whether they look the type. Most European countries don't use public juries alas the UK is the exception

The jury system IS better. IF your population can be relied upon to put aside prejudices, like racial and sexual and religious and political ones. And if they have common sense.

That's why it often fails in the US.
But judges are not the answer in every case. Now and again, someone will be prosecuted by the state, who perhaps HAS technically committed a crime, but who should never have been prosecuted.

Some of the mercy killings come into this catagory, but there are loads of other examples.
A jury would probably do the right thing in these cases, but a judge would feel bound to follow the letter of the law.

So in the UK, I think the jury system is best. Elsewhere, it's not.

Once again the Brits seem to forget that the UK is a fraction of the size of the US and isn't divided up into 50 states that have their own judicial systems. It's a lot easier to control a tiny judicial system. So no, our system doesn't fail occasionally because of our prejudices and lack of common sense, it fails on occasion from the sheer volume of cases we hear every year.

[Coito ergo sum]

LOL -- I love how mistermack pretends that the UK populace doesn't have racial, political and other biases. Everything better in Britain, of course....as per usual.

[laklak]

So in the UK, I think the jury system is best. Elsewhere, it's not.

Absolutely, Old Boy! The UK is the Jewel in the Crown of Western Civilization, the rest of us are just wannabes. Why, I would trust my life and liberty to these sturdy lads any day!

[mistermack]

America has it's pin-up boys and girls too. :

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=8560

[Coito ergo sum]

Gotta love the sanctimonious Brits.... http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/fe ... fghanistan

The British Government, faced with serious acts of terrorism perpetrated by members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and Loyalist groups in Northern Ireland, introduced special powers of arrest and detention without trial,

The British Government, faced with serious acts of terrorism perpetrated by members of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and Loyalist groups in Northern Ireland, introduced special powers of arrest and detention without trial, which were widely used, chiefly against the IRA

http://lawofwar.org/Ireland_v_United_Kingdom.htm

(ii) that various interrogation practices--in particular the so-called 'five techniques', which included wall- standing, hooding and deprivation of sleep and food--and other practices to which suspects were subjected amounted to torture and inhuman or degrading treatment contrary to Article 3...The Commission unanimously found that the five techniques did constitute a practice of torture

Yes yes.... tell us again of the superior Yerpeein enlightened soul...

[MrJonno]

I don't think the average Brit or American is particuarly racist, sexist or bigoted but I don't think they are particuarly rational or up on the law.

Bare in mind jury trials are not decided by 12 people they are generally decided by 1 or 2 people with a bit of charisma that will bend the will of everyone else there.

Jury trials are about protecting the public from the 'tyranny' of government when I'm far more interested in the government protecting me from the tyranny of the public

[Coito ergo sum]

The way the government protects you from the tyranny of the public is by enforcing the law which governs the relationships of individuals. People can't jail you, threaten you, hit you, etc., without legal sanction.

This idea of the government as some sort of benevolent force is a product of ignorance, and of a very tiny minority of privileged humans who have the good fortune of living under fairly benign governments. To think that this is the normal state of affairs is to ignore the bulk of human history, and the bulk of the present human condition.

[MrJonno]

This idea of the government as some sort of benevolent force is a product of ignorance, and of a very tiny minority of privileged humans who have the good fortune of living under fairly benign governments. To think that this is the normal state of affairs is to ignore the bulk of human history, and the bulk of the present human condition.

Actually thats quite an interesting statement I actually think reasonable government in a liberal democracy came about via evolution via human/natural selection and absolutely not revolution. In other words it was almost certainly inevitable. You do release the US didnt become some lovely free place to live in a couple of years in the 18th century it evolved slowly to a system it has today just like everyone else.

I'm not ignoring human history I accept most of it was very shit but there has definite path of progression ie progressive politics. People in a 100 years time will look back at us and think what a bunch of savages the same way I look back a 100 years and feel the same way

[Animavore]

I wish Coito would stop equating the Brits with the Europeans. Everyone in Europe hates the Brits

[Animavore]

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/07/state- ... on-claims/

[FBM]

Zimm's invoking "God's plan" now. Fuck him. Let him hang.

http://view.koreaherald.com/kh/view.php ... 0719001264