Guns Used.....cont

[FBM]

For me, in trying to decide whether or not pulling a gun in that situation was justified, that news story is lacking in some important details. What are the relative sizes of the line-cutting, face-punching twat compared to the guy with the gun? How strong was the punch? What was the attacker's posture and attitude? Was it a single punch and then he backed off, or was he still posturing aggressively? Did the guy with the gun have, for example, a ruptured vertebral disc that prevented him from engaging physically (sans handgun)? Did he have a pregnant wife and/or kids with him that he was protecting? And if not, were there defenseless customers nearby that were being seriously, physically threatened by that guy?

I'm pretty sure that Seth would say that none of that makes a difference; if somebody punches you, you have a right to defend yourself by whatever means at your disposal. I have to pretty much agree, as long as you're still in danger. I probably wouldn't, though, unless the other guy pulled a weapon or was just fucking huge. I'd give Hapkido a try first. I busted my balls 5 nights a week for 6 years to get those skills and have yet to use a single one of them.

[FBM]

So every time you walk into a bank you are armed and "case the joint" ?

Yup. In fact, when entering convenience stores and banks I stop outside for a moment or two and look in the windows to see what's going on before I enter. When I enter I make note of who is where and what's going on as a matter of routine situational awareness.

Only prudent to do so. It's called living in "condition yellow."

That's not situational awareness, that's paranoia.

It can be. But when I'm in Mexico, Central America, certain parts of Thailand, etc, I do much the same. Come to think of it, there are places in the US where I do the same. The east side of Knoxville, for example. I wouldn't even drive through that place without a firearm of some kind. There are gang shootings almost daily over there.

I think it depends on the individual whether it's paranoid behavior or not. If you have had enough experiences with violence, like a retired police officer would, it may not necessarily be paranoia. Could be, but not necessarily.

[Warren Dew]

FBM

There is plenty of opportunity to interview suicide survivors, since most suicide attempts fail. As I pointed out, most American suicide attempts are with drugs or knife. However, most successful attempts are with hand gun.

Certainly those who attempt suicide are unhappy. Else why would they do it. The impulse to suicide is brief and temporary. The unhappiness is normally much longer lasting. But most causes of depression can be overcome in time.

And yet, Japan manages twice the American rate of (successful) suicides without guns.

[Warren Dew]

How can you possibly know that? It would seem contrary to what's happening right now and contrary to any sensible predictions of our near future.

There are hints in today's developments. Take oil for example. It is often stated that the world, and (on this forum) the United States in particular, will collapse as a result of oil depletion. A new report from the International Energy Agency contradicts that view point, with a prediction that the USA will, by 2035, and using natural gas plus alternative fossil oil, be quite self sufficient.
http://www.iea.org/newsroomandevents/pr ... 15,en.html

Other resources are mostly mineral resources, or renewable (like forests). Mineral resources are only limited with today's technology. A New Scientist article on that topic pointed out that the Earth's crust averages 40 kms thick and humans have barely tapped the top 1 km. There are new techniques under development which will permit us to find needed resources in the other 39 kms.

Population growth implies more competition even for renewable resources.

[FBM]

FBM

There is plenty of opportunity to interview suicide survivors, since most suicide attempts fail. As I pointed out, most American suicide attempts are with drugs or knife. However, most successful attempts are with hand gun.

Certainly those who attempt suicide are unhappy. Else why would they do it. The impulse to suicide is brief and temporary. The unhappiness is normally much longer lasting. But most causes of depression can be overcome in time.

And yet, Japan manages twice the American rate of (successful) suicides without guns.

And where I live, Korea, they're even better at it than the Japanese. Again, without guns.

[Blind groper]

And yet, Japan manages twice the American rate of (successful) suicides without guns.

Irrelevant.
This discussion is about the harm that guns do. Japan has a lot of suicides for reasons that have nothing to do with guns. America has a lot of suicides that are very definitely related to guns. Thus, it is reasonable to discuss the gun related suicides in USA and not to discuss the non gun related suicides in Japan. Repeat. The discussion is about guns. I would not discuss malaria deaths on this thread, and other deaths that have nothing to do with guns are also irrelevant.

Population growth implies more competition even for renewable resources.

Population growth is not a long term concern. Growth rates have already plummeted. Fertility is now 2.4 as a global average, down from 5.5 about 50 years ago. The United Nations have said that population will peak by 2100 at somewhere between 6 billion and 16 billion (most probable at 10 billion) and decrease thereafter.

It is seriously unlikely that anyone in the western world will experience any deprivation related to over population.

[FBM]

The guns don't cause the suicides. At least, you haven't proven that yet. People manage to kill themselves with or without guns. Spontaneous and fleeting impulse or not. That's what comparing international statistics indicate. Japan, Korea, New Zealand, wherever. Whatever method people choose, whether it's a fleeting impulse or not, you can't blame the method. Otherwise, we'll be tearing down bridges and highrises, pulling ropes and knives from shelves, shutting off electricity to homes, shutting down traffic on the streets, etc. The problem isn't the method. The problem is whatever led that person to seek ending his/her own life in the first place.

Trying to blame the method is just an attempt to find a quick-and-easy solution to a complex and intractable problem. It's avoiding the real issues, rather than addressing them, I think. If handguns directly caused successful suicides, then countries without them would have lower suicide rates. I haven't seen any data yet that overcomes the weakness inherent in this argument. Yes, the US has serious social problems that result in a high suicide rate. The fact that someone chooses this or that method isn't the cause; it's a symptom. Remove one method and they'll just find another. That's what the international statistics suggest. By removing handguns, you still haven't even begun to address the real societal problems that lead so many people to want to end their lives, whether on sudden impulse or not.

[Warren Dew]

The United Nations have said that population will peak by 2100 at somewhere between 6 billion and 16 billion (most probable at 10 billion) and decrease thereafter.

Actually, only the low estimate includes a peak. The UN high estimate shows population growing continuously for the foreseeable future. And we're already past 6 billion.

[Blind groper]

The problem isn't the method. The problem is whatever led that person to seek ending his/her own life in the first place.

Correction. The problem is not just the method.

However, the fact that most suicide attempts in the USA are with drugs or cutting, but most successful suicides in the USA are with hand guns leads to an inevitable conclusion. Without hand guns, the number of suicide deaths would be a lot less. Never forget that most suicide attempts are unsuccessful, except with guns or jumping off a high place. Nor that most would-be suicides try only once. If the attempt fails, they do not die. If they use a hand gun, they do not get a second chance.

I agree that whatever led a person to attempt suicide in the first place is something that also needs to be addressed to reduce suicide rate. But that is outside the scope of this discussion.

[FBM]

Societal problems that we could address that might actually have an impact on the suicide rate:

The 'beauty pageant' culture. You're either pretty or handsome and popular or you're a loser. A lot of parents teach their kids that, directly or indirectly. Anorexia nervosa, plastic surgery, etc etc. I wonder how many people kill themselves because society tells them that they're ugly losers?

Being richer is better. A lot of people learn to measure self-esteem by their bottom line. Poor people, IIRC, have higher suicide rates.

Consumerism. The key to happiness is owning the right amount of the right stuff. You just don't have the right stuff yet, or enough of it. You've always got to get more and better stuff, which means you have to whore yourself out to some company, spending most of your waking life making some fat-ass twat who's never done a hard day's work richer than he already is, while he systematically does everything in his power to give you the absolute least possible for doing so. How many people kill themselves because they feel trapped in a dead-end job or because they lost that dead-end job?

Marriage. Sure, it's OK for some, maybe most. But there's an underlying theme in society that if you're older and single, something must be wrong with you. So you wind up marrying somebody just to be married, even if you know deep inside yourself that you'd be happier single. And so you fight with that person when they don't fulfill your needs and/or expectations. And you have kids, because that's what society tells you to do. Then you teach them to do the same shit that made you so unhappy. How many people commit suicide due to marital problems? How many kids commit suicide because of problems with their parents and the insane shit some parents demand of their kids (like conforming to a sick society's demands)?

There's more, but you get the idea. You're not going to put a dent in the suicide rate by removing one method. You're just going to make them find another method, like people in gun-free cultures do, at even higher frequency than Americans do.

[Blind groper]

FBM
Agreed. But that is not what this discussion is about. Hand gun availability increases deaths. There is no doubt about that simple fact. It would be great to see the other causes of suicide successfully addressed, but we are not discussing that.

[FBM]

The problem isn't the method. The problem is whatever led that person to seek ending his/her own life in the first place.

Correction. The problem is not just the method.

However, the fact that most suicide attempts in the USA are with drugs or cutting, but most successful suicides in the USA are with hand guns leads to an inevitable conclusion. Without hand guns, the number of suicide deaths would be a lot less. Never forget that most suicide attempts are unsuccessful, except with guns or jumping off a high place. Nor that most would-be suicides try only once. If the attempt fails, they do not die. If they use a hand gun, they do not get a second chance.

I agree that whatever led a person to attempt suicide in the first place is something that also needs to be addressed to reduce suicide rate. But that is outside the scope of this discussion.

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

[Blind groper]

You're not going to put a dent in the suicide rate by removing one method. You're just going to make them find another method.

No, I do not agree.
The number of hand guns will not change the number of impulses to suicide. It just changes the number of suicides that result in death.

[Blind groper]

I read that most successful suicides in NZ are by hanging. Got a plan for that?

I think I told you that.
I wish I did have a plan. Any ideas?

it is much easier to make hand guns less available than to make the ingredients for hanging less available. Prisoners use bed sheets. How the hell do you stop that? Seriously, I would like to know.

[FBM]

FBM
Agreed. But that is not what this discussion is about. Hand gun availability increases deaths. There is no doubt about that simple fact. It would be great to see the other causes of suicide successfully addressed, but we are not discussing that.

There is doubt about that "simple fact." You don't have lower suicide rates in countries without handguns; you just have different methods.

In order to know whether or not handgun availability in the US itself would reduce suicides or other deaths, you'd have to collect data by a trial period of removing handguns for a certain length of time and tracking the suicide/death rates, then comparing that data to data collected when handguns were available. Otherwise, your claims are just conjecture.

If, instead, you want to compare statistics from non-handgun countries, your argument is still defeated, because many of those countries still have higher successful suicide rates.