The Almighty Unions

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:25 pm

Warren Dew wrote: Well, except for the fact that labor unions don't redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor; they redistribute wealth from stockholders, who are largely retirees living on limited income, and poor nonunionized employees, to affluent unionized employees. If anything, they are redistibuting wealth from the poorer to the richer.
Have you noticed that in today's economy, about the best return you can get on a savings account at a bank is 2 percent or less. Pretty tough for those poor widows and orphans to get by on such a meagre return, after a lifetime of working and scrimping and saving.
Yet, when they wanna borrow from the same bank, they're charged 29% credit card rates!
Now, obviously, this is all due to the bloody greed thirsty UnionS.
Help stamp out Union greed! :ab:
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:32 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:I recall accidentally crossing a picket line at a supermarket. I wasn't aware of the strike. I probably wouldn't have crossed the picket line to shop there had I known. I stopped off
and parked and walked quickly toward the door since I was in a great hurry. I needed one or
two things and had to get home. I heard yelling that appeared directed at me, and turned and
looked and lo and behold, yes the yelling was directed at me. Did they ask me nicely to hear
them out and respect their picket line? No. They cursed at me and yelled at me, and directed
slurs at me.
Terrible. Your mistake is certainly understandable, since picket lines are often "hidden"
(another evil Union tactic to trap the unwary?). If only they had things like piles of
firewood, an old oil drum with a fire burning in it, scads of people milling about, many of
them carrying large signs, well, these misunderstandings wouldn't happen. And, it's
certainly their fault that you were in a big hurry - these folks have no understanding or
empathy at all. So, screw 'em - make sure to cross their picket line at every opportunity!
I stood there and took it, not responding immediately as it registered what was going on.
Since nobody asked me anything, however, I turned and walked into the store. I bought my
things from the "scab" and walked back out to more yelling and curses. I immediately yelled
back at them and stated that had I known they were on strike I would have respected their
picket line, but now that they saw fit to curse me out, I am going to make it a point to
patronize the store on a daily basis and buy stuff I don't even need. Then I told them to
fuck off. I walked back to my car and took the precaution of checking my tires - and picked
up three star nails which had been placed immediately behind my tires - I would have backed
over them. I was shocked. And, I made good on my promise to go to that store regularly -
thanks to the shit behavior of the striking workers.
You should have called police - they could have charged the picketers for such a malicious
crime. I'll tell you how lax the law gets when the shoe is on the other foot.
Your sad tale has touched my heart, and is obvious proof of just how evil Union people are.
I'll continue in another posting, where you can see what befalls kind, generous employers.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Sun Mar 27, 2011 4:37 pm

The Hamlet chicken processing plant fire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamlet_chi ... plant_fire

Twenty-five people were killed and 54 injured in the fire, as they were trapped behind
locked fire doors. :dsi:
Now I ask you, how many employers are thoughtful enough to lock fire doors on the outside so
their employees won't be accosted by intruders?
As has been pointed out here, workers don't need Unions to protect them - there are plenty
of laws already. So what if the Chicken plant hadn't been inspected in 11 years - the laws
are there, and what more could you want?
The poultry inspector had visited the site daily and was aware of the various fire
violations; one worker has stated that much of the chicken meat was rotten,[6] and that the
reason it was processed into chicken nuggets was to disguise the foul taste. However, for
unknown reasons, he did not report these violations.[5][6] Some workers were made nervous by
the locked doors but did not voice their concerns for fear of losing their jobs.
The usual Union propaganda, eh!

The plant owner, his son, and the plant manager were all charged, but, thank goodness
justice prevails, and a deal was struck where the owner pleaded guilty, and charges were
dropped against the other two.
The sentence was an outrageous - 19 years and eleven months, but, of course, the public has a short memory, and this poor victimized owner was released after serving four years. Christ, you'd think he was guilty of something awful, like shoplifting, or being black and stopped on a highway with more than 20 dollars on him.
And, in unfair retaliation, another plant was inspected, and shut down because of little
silly things like not having proper fire exits, or an emergency plan, or fire suppression on
the deep fryer. Like these poor guys hadn't suffered enough business loss!
There were also complaints that a neighbouring fire department was prevented from assisting,
because it was mostly black. So what - what would they know about fighting a white fire?
And you know what? - the "victims" tried to PROFIT from the fire! Thanks goodness, once again, justice prevailed, and
Within two years of the accident insurance companies and the North Carolina business lobby collaboratively introduced legislation to severely limit the compensation available to injured workers and relatives of killed workers.
Lordy, is there NO END to Workers GREED? Just imagine if there had been a Union there.
What story could better illustrate how well workers are protected by law, and Unions are
completely superfluous in this day and age.
Unfortunately, you rarely see stories such as this in the biased, pro Union media. Let's
hope Rush Limbaugh's supporters provide more balanced viewpoints.

:Erasb:
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by egbert » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:23 pm

Jörmungandr wrote:The problem isn't the existence of unions, its the loss of balance they achieved. $30-50 an hour plus benefits is a lot to pay for unskilled labor. The UAW pushed, and got good things for its members, but then they pushed too far and now look where they are.
When you take your car to a stealership, they charge around a hundred dollars an hour for a mechanic to work on your car. Of course, you're lucky if they have more than one mechanic - the rest are "apprentices" earning not a hell of a lot above minimum wage. Who's doing the ripoff - the union workers, or the stealership?
AND, to add insult to injury, you pay for whatever time is alloted in some wonderful manual - i.e. you pay 2 hours labour, even if the job ACTUALLY takes 15 minutes.
Oh, those greedy Unions! NOT!
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:30 pm

Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire
The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in New York City on March 25, 1911, was the deadliest industrial disaster in the history of the city of New York and resulted in the fourth highest loss of life from an industrial accident in U.S. history. The fire caused the deaths of 146 garment workers, who either died from the fire or jumped to their deaths. Most of the victims were recent Jewish and Italian immigrant women aged sixteen to twenty-three;[1][2][3] the oldest victim was 48, the youngest were two fourteen-year-old girls.[4] Many of the workers could not escape the burning building because the managers had locked the doors to the stairwells and exits. People jumped from the eighth, ninth, and tenth floors. The fire led to legislation requiring improved factory safety standards and helped spur the growth of the International Ladies' Garment Workers' Union, which fought for better working conditions for sweatshop workers.
Damn liberals legislating reality again. Those people were immigrants, so who fucking' cares if they were incinerated or suffocated?
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by .Morticia. » Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:04 pm

Lets talk about today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Masse ... y_Disaster

Upper Big Branch Mine disasterFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from 2010 Massey Energy Disaster)
Jump to: navigation, search
Coordinates: 37°56′14″N 81°32′37″W / 37.937256°N 81.543572°W / 37.937256; -81.543572
Contents [hide]
1 Explosion
2 Rescue and recovery mission
3 Investigation
4 Safety violations and fatalities
5 Interactive Memorial
6 Public reactions
7 In popular culture
7.1 Music
8 See also
9 References
10 External links



The Upper Big Branch Mine disaster occurred on April 5, 2010 about 1,000 feet (300 m) underground at Massey Energy's Upper Big Branch coal mine at Montcoal in Raleigh County, West Virginia. Twenty-nine out of thirty-one miners at the site were killed.[1] The explosion occurred at 3:27 pm.[2] The accident was the worst in the United States since 1970, when 38 miners were killed at Finley Coal Company's No. 15 and 16 mines in Hyden, Kentucky.[3][4][5]

[edit] ExplosionThe explosion occurred at 3:27 PM local time (19:27 UTC) on Monday, April 5, 2010, at the Upper Big Branch South Mine near the community of Montcoal, about 30 miles (48 km) south of Charleston. The mine is operated by the Performance Coal Company, a subsidiary of Massey Energy.[2] High methane levels were detected and subsequently an explosion from an unknown source occurred. Twenty-five men were initially identified as killed.[6] Four days later, the four missing men were found dead for a total of 29 deaths.[7][8] While the investigation is still ongoing, officials have speculated that it may have been caused by a spark from a mantrip.[9]

[edit] Rescue and recovery missionEmergency crews initially gathered at the one of the portals for the Upper Big Branch Mine in Birchton, West Virginia, about 2 miles north of Montcoal and 3 miles south of Whitesville on Route 3 (on the west side of the road).[10] Kevin Stricklin, an administrator with the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA), stated 25 were reported dead and 4 unaccounted for. There are four boreholes to the mine; rescuers said they must drill 1,200 feet (370 m) through one of them to reach the affected area where survivors were located. Officials stated that there are two rescue chambers – ventilated rooms with basic supplies for survival – in the mine. On April 6, 2010, at 2:00 a.m., high levels of methane and carbon monoxide were detected forcing the team of rescuers to higher ground, further delaying the search. [11]

By Wednesday April 7, 11 bodies had been recovered while 14 still had not.[11] Although there were no indications that the four missing miners were still alive, the operations continued in rescue mode, rather than moving to recovery. Governor Joe Manchin III of West Virginia said, "Everyone is holding on to the hope that is their father, their son."[12] On the morning of April 8, 2010 the rescue efforts were suspended due to dangerous levels of methane in the mine.[13] Smoke in the mine, still present on April 9, indicated that there was an active fire in the mine making conditions hazardous for rescuers. Rescue attempts were set to resume later that day.[14]

According to an Associated Press story[15] the two safety chambers in the mine are inflatable units made by Strata Safety Products with air, water, sanitary facilities, and food sufficient to support more than a dozen miners for about four days; they could possibly support four miners for longer than 96 hours, though only if any miners managed to reach a chamber after the blast. [16].

Late on April 9, West Virginia Governor Joe Manchin announced that the bodies of the 4 miners had been found, bringing the death toll to 29. The miners had not made it to either of the safety chambers. Conditions were so bad in the mine that rescuers who were in the mine on the first day of rescue unknowingly walked past the bodies of the four miners.[17]

[edit] InvestigationDue to the large concentration of toxic gasses in the mine, MSHA investigators had to wait for over two months to enter the mine for investigation.[18] Investigators were able to enter the mine on July 2, 2010.[19]

Investigative teams from MSHA and the West Virginia Office of Miners’ Health, Safety and Training, after extensively exploring the mine in order to make sure that it was safe for investigators to enter, began their probe into the causes of the disaster on June 28, 2010. Multiple teams will work inside the mine, each team having a different area of expertise. Currently, three teams from the U.S. Mine Safety and Health Administration, the State of West Virginia, and Massey Energy are working together to determine the cause of the explosion and assess the best way to make the mine safe to reopen.[20] The investigation is moving slowly due to problems such as debris, standing water, and roof collapses. The office of West Virgina governor Joe Manchin says that the investigation may not be complete by the end of the year.[21]

The investigative team has interviewed 126 people knowledgeable about the mine, and has plans to interview 100 more.[21]

In addition to MSHA, the FBI has also launched a probe, investigating possible criminal wrongdoing at the mine, including criminal negligence and possible bribery of federal regulators.[22]

[edit] Safety violations and fatalitiesIn 2009, the company, Massey Energy, was fined a total of $382,000 for "serious" unrepentant violations for lacking ventilation and proper equipment plans as well as failing to utilize its safety plan properly.[23] In the previous month, the authorities cited the mine for 57 safety infractions.[24] The mine received two citations the day before the explosion and in the last five years has been cited for 1,342 safety violations. The CEO of Massey Energy, Don Blankenship, has received criticism for his apparent disregard of safety.[25] The Upper Big Branch Mine-South, where the explosion occurred, has been in operation since October 1994.[26] Between 2000 and 2009, two fatalities occurred at this mine.[27]

Mine safety investigators are still searching for an exact cause, though the methane explosion, largely preventable by proper ventilation, is being closely examined. Investigators are also reviewing the record of safety violations at the Upper Big Branch mine, which amassed more than 1,100 violations in the past three years, many of them serious, including 50 of them in March 2010 for violations including improper ventilation of methane and poor escape routes. Federal regulators had ordered portions of the mine closed 60 times over the year preceding the explosion.[28]
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:14 am

.Morticia. wrote:Lets talk about today.
What the fuck good were the unions at the Big Branch mine? None, apparently. Despite all your claims about how wonderful unions are, they didn't prevent the disaster, now did they? What likely happened is that the mine owner paid off the UMW bosses to induce them not to call a strike for unsafe working conditions in the mine.

The failure there was simply a failure of the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and it's regulatory system, which failed on numerous occasions to enforce EXISTING OSHA and MSHA laws on a known scofflaw.

In other words, blame Obama, because the buck stops at his desk, and he could have ordered OSHA, MSHA and the FBI to shut down the mine at any time, but didn't.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:23 am

egbert wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:The unions made a difference of about 50% in my old man's income. We'd have been living in a one bedroom how without the UAW. I know this because we were doing that before he got a job with GM.
And look what happened to GM as a result...it went bankrupt. There's a clue there for those with the wit to understand.
Yeah, it was 'cause o' them greedy Union wages. Had nuthin to do with a world wide glut of cars and car manufacturers, or an economic downturn that meant people couldn't afford new cars, or the fact that GM had three stealerships in every hick village and town, or had car lineups that "competed" with themselves. Nope. DUH!
Had to do with a lot of things, but one of the largest factors was union wages and pensions. GM has legions of people on 100 percent pensions who have been on a pension for longer than they worked for the company. No company can sustain former retired employees for longer than they worked for the company. It's a sure course to economic suicide. It's like having an ever-expanding workforce, most of whom don't do any work, don't produce any wealth for the company, and suck the profits away from the company, causing it to flounder and die.

That's exactly what the UAW did to GM. Add that burden to the soft market for cars and their own bad engineering and marketing, and death was certain. And that's what SHOULD have happened. GM should have been shut down, all its contracts voided, and its assets should have been sold off to pay the bonded debtors, and the unions employees and bosses should have been left swinging in the wind, because that's what happens, and what you deserve, when your pay and pension demands suck the life out of the company you depend on for your job.

There's hope that the Supreme Court will eventually rule that Obama's seizure and defrauding of secured creditors will be tossed out, and GM will will finally have its throat slit and it will die, which is what it deserves, and what the economy deserves.

And someone who can run a car company better and more efficiently than GM, and will do it WITHOUT the union pension burden GM labored under, will buy the infrastructure and start building better, cheaper cars.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:25 am

egbert wrote:
Seth wrote: That was then, this is now. Where workplace safety, zoning, building and fire codes control workplace safety, and government agencies like OSHA regulate worker safety and health, unions are redundant and unnecessary, and are a waste of money. That far back in history the force of unionization was necessary to create laws to protect workers doesn't mean that they have any legitimacy today.
Of course they're unnecessary! And, with all this regulatory oversight, why, who has EVER heard of a mine owner demanding his workers carry on under dangerous conditions? Seth is so right -I mean who has EVER heard of any miners dying recently with all the oversight from the regulatory bodies! What a ridiculous notion! I mean, with all the financial regulatory bodies, have you EVER heard of ANYTHING going wrong in the financial world? The best thing that could ever happen would be to put Bernie Madoff back in charge of NASDAQ.
All any mine worker has to do is call the MSHA, OSHA or a state agency and file a complaint. Then the monkey's on the back of the government to enforce the existing health and safety laws. No union needed.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by .Morticia. » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:32 am

TROLL FAIL!!!
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Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies. ~ Marx

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:41 am

.Morticia. wrote:TROLL FAIL!!!
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Not really. You couldn't resist reading my posts, is my bet.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:44 am

Seth wrote:
.Morticia. wrote:TROLL FAIL!!!
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Not really. You couldn't resist reading my posts, is my bet.
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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:31 am

egbert wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I recall accidentally crossing a picket line at a supermarket. I wasn't aware of the strike. I probably wouldn't have crossed the picket line to shop there had I known. I stopped off
and parked and walked quickly toward the door since I was in a great hurry. I needed one or
two things and had to get home. I heard yelling that appeared directed at me, and turned and
looked and lo and behold, yes the yelling was directed at me. Did they ask me nicely to hear
them out and respect their picket line? No. They cursed at me and yelled at me, and directed
slurs at me.
Terrible. Your mistake is certainly understandable, since picket lines are often "hidden"
(another evil Union tactic to trap the unwary?).
I wasn't paying attention. Their choice on how they reacted was to curse and sling slurs at me personally.
And, this has a big supermarket - turnout at the strike was not huge. There were some folks there, but they weren't all that conspicuous, given that there were multiple entry doors.

But, you're right, I suppose. It was my job to ensure that I was fully aware of the work arrangement between the check out people/shelf stockers/deli workers and the supermarket, and the fact that a strike didn't immediately register in my preoccupied mind certainly warranted me being verbally attacked and cursed at for daring to enter the supermarket at which they worked.
egbert wrote: If only they had things like piles of
firewood, an old oil drum with a fire burning in it, scads of people milling about, many of
them carrying large signs, well, these misunderstandings wouldn't happen. And, it's
certainly their fault that you were in a big hurry - these folks have no understanding or
empathy at all. So, screw 'em - make sure to cross their picket line at every opportunity!
It's not their job to know if I'm in a big hurry. I never said it was. Likewise, it's not my job to know what they're doing either.

How they reacted is not my fault. If someone tells me to fuck off and calls me a scumbag and other names without first saying, "hey, buddy! Hey! We're on strike here! If you support our fight for higher wages, please don't cross it!" - That might have been a bit human. But, no, I oughta already, automatically, side with the union, because no matter what the union is right and whatever they're asking for is too little. Therefore, my failure to recognize that they were striking and my mistake in daring to cross their picket line is tantamount to support of slavery.
egbert wrote:
I stood there and took it, not responding immediately as it registered what was going on.
Since nobody asked me anything, however, I turned and walked into the store. I bought my
things from the "scab" and walked back out to more yelling and curses. I immediately yelled
back at them and stated that had I known they were on strike I would have respected their
picket line, but now that they saw fit to curse me out, I am going to make it a point to
patronize the store on a daily basis and buy stuff I don't even need. Then I told them to
fuck off. I walked back to my car and took the precaution of checking my tires - and picked
up three star nails which had been placed immediately behind my tires - I would have backed
over them. I was shocked. And, I made good on my promise to go to that store regularly -
thanks to the shit behavior of the striking workers.
You should have called police - they could have charged the picketers for such a malicious
crime.
Oh, sure. I'll call the police because I found three star nails by my tire. I didn't see anyone put it there, but it must be the striking workers, right? And, you think the police will charge them? Since I have a fair bit of knowledge about how these things worked, I saw the futility in that.
egbert wrote:
I'll tell you how lax the law gets when the shoe is on the other foot.
Your sad tale has touched my heart, and is obvious proof of just how evil Union people are.
I never used the word "evil." Those that were on the picket line that I described, however, were douchebags.
egbert wrote: I'll continue in another posting, where you can see what befalls kind, generous employers.
I'm not taking sides. I support the right of employees to unionize and collectively bargain, except (as per my FDR quote) when it is against the public interest in the public sector.

Those union folks have every right to strike and to picket - and depending on what they were asking for, I might well support them. However, if some douchebag suggests that it's my obligation to support them, "My Union Right or Wrong," then I'll exercise MY right to not support them. Rights aren't the exclusive purview of unions or union members.

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:33 am

egbert wrote:
Warren Dew wrote: Well, except for the fact that labor unions don't redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor; they redistribute wealth from stockholders, who are largely retirees living on limited income, and poor nonunionized employees, to affluent unionized employees. If anything, they are redistibuting wealth from the poorer to the richer.
Have you noticed that in today's economy, about the best return you can get on a savings account at a bank is 2 percent or less. Pretty tough for those poor widows and orphans to get by on such a meagre return, after a lifetime of working and scrimping and saving.
Yet, when they wanna borrow from the same bank, they're charged 29% credit card rates!
29% credit card rates? Where? Maybe if you pay consistently late...

You're concerned about the meager return on capital gains? Where are you on the capital gains tax? Ought it be raised?

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Re: The Almighty Unions

Post by Seth » Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:59 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Oh, sure. I'll call the police because I found three star nails by my tire. I didn't see anyone put it there, but it must be the striking workers, right? And, you think the police will charge them? Since I have a fair bit of knowledge about how these things worked, I saw the futility in that.

I'm not taking sides. I support the right of employees to unionize and collectively bargain, except (as per my FDR quote) when it is against the public interest in the public sector.

Those union folks have every right to strike and to picket - and depending on what they were asking for, I might well support them. However, if some douchebag suggests that it's my obligation to support them, "My Union Right or Wrong," then I'll exercise MY right to not support them. Rights aren't the exclusive purview of unions or union members.
I agree with you. While I think unions are redundant, unnecessary and harmful to the economy, in the end, in the private sector, it's only the business owner who loses...and the union employees...if they don't hammer out an agreement that allows the business to prosper and be profitable while still satisfying the employees. I'm fine with that, SO LONG AS the business owner can simply fire all the union members and hire new ones if he wants. Where it becomes government-supported coercion is when the NLRB interferes and writes the agreement, forcing the company owner to capitulate using the force of law. That's inherently unfair and an improper use of government power to favor labor's position over that of the business owner. Were I a business owner faced with a government-mandated union contract, I'd shut the business down and fire EVERYONE before I'd allow it. Let them all starve.

And if a union can make a rational case why their demands are just and reasonable, I might support them. For example I would support unionization of all restaurant wait staff, who are paid below minimum wage, if their demand was that they be paid at least the same minimum wage as everyone else. The same is true for agricultural workers. While I strenuously OBJECT to minimum wage laws, I also strenuously object to ANYONE being left out of a minimum wage structure if it's in place. If ANYONE is entitled to a minimum wage, then EVERYONE should be so entitled. That's fundamental fairness.

But insult me or damage my personal property because I choose to ignore a picket line? Fuck them, that will set me AGAINST them.

And I agree that public sector unions are simply not permissible.

Oh, and CES, they're called "caltrops."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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