Julian Assange - Assassin Bait?

[Schneibster]

I think there are people who think secret == evil.

Well, "other people's secrets==evil" anyway. Assange didn't have any problem with being all upset about his little sex secrets being "free."

But those aren't gummint secrets. You're changing the subject.

Sauce, goose, gander elephant.

FIFY

Give the man a cigar. That's why the warrantless wiretapping without judicial oversight was such a big deal, and why the NYT was doing their job writing about it. Journalism is an institution of democracy just as much as government.

Indeed. But there's a difference between revealing that the government was wiretapping people without warrants and revealing WHICH people were being wiretapped and WHAT WAS SAID during the wiretapped conversations in a manner that would endanger, for example, confidential informants working undercover to catch mob bosses that ends up getting the informants and/or federal agents killed.

That's the equivalent of what Assange has done.

But it's not what he thought he was doing when he started out, or there'd never have been a decryption key because the data would have come out unencrypted, duh.

He wasn't revealing them uncensored, until he fucked up and revealed the decryption key. Maybe you forgot.

No excuses facts I'm afraid.

FIFY

People are dying because of what he did, that is certain. He should be held responsible for each and every death. "I didn't mean to reveal the decryption key" doesn't cut it because there should have been no key because he should have immediately turned over the data to the United States without looking at it as soon as he discovered it was classified information.

We're not talking about excuses. We're talking about his state of mind.

Stop trying to change the subject.

Well, here's my take on his quote: "If you can't kill your enemy first, then it's a good idea to know and understand him." I suspect Sun Tzu would agree with that.

He'd ask how you intend to kill your enemy if you can't find them, duh.

[Seth]

I think there are people who think secret == evil.

Well, "other people's secrets==evil" anyway. Assange didn't have any problem with being all upset about his little sex secrets being "free."

But those aren't gummint secrets. You're changing the subject.

Sauce, goose, gander elephant.

FIFY

Give the man a cigar. That's why the warrantless wiretapping without judicial oversight was such a big deal, and why the NYT was doing their job writing about it. Journalism is an institution of democracy just as much as government.

Indeed. But there's a difference between revealing that the government was wiretapping people without warrants and revealing WHICH people were being wiretapped and WHAT WAS SAID during the wiretapped conversations in a manner that would endanger, for example, confidential informants working undercover to catch mob bosses that ends up getting the informants and/or federal agents killed.

That's the equivalent of what Assange has done.

But it's not what he thought he was doing when he started out,

How do you know? Are you a co-conspirator privy to his intention and thoughts, or are you making ex-recto assumptions that fit your predetermined outcome?

or there'd never have been a decryption key because the data would have come out unencrypted, duh.

If he was an honest broker of information that was important in demonstrating governmental corruption or malice he would not have retained, much less parked in cyberspace the entirety of the illegally-obtained data dump under an encryption key that he himself threatened to release publicly if he was arrested.

He's not an honest journalist, he's a spy and an enemy combatant who encrypted and then parked the bulk of the documents in cyberspace precisely so that he could use it as blackmail to protect his own sorry ass.

Well, now his "get out of jail free card" has been blown, and he deserves to pay for what he did, with, or for the rest of his life, because he's an accomplice in the deaths of soldiers and others who have been placed in danger by his irresponsible, narcissistic, criminal acts. Fucking sucks to be him right now, and it couldn't be happening more appropriately. Fucked by his own stupidity in giving a journalist writing a book the actual decryption key, rather than the one-time key he claimed it was. Dumb motherfucker.

He wasn't revealing them uncensored, until he fucked up and revealed the decryption key. Maybe you forgot.

No excuses facts I'm afraid.

FIFY

People are dying because of what he did, that is certain. He should be held responsible for each and every death. "I didn't mean to reveal the decryption key" doesn't cut it because there should have been no key because he should have immediately turned over the data to the United States without looking at it as soon as he discovered it was classified information.

We're not talking about excuses. We're talking about his state of mind.

Stop trying to change the subject.

I don't know what you're talking about, but I'm talking about excuses, and there are none. He knowingly, deliberately and maliciously broke US espionage laws, and he needs to pay the ultimate price for doing so. No excuses. Doesn't matter a fuck what his state of mind was.

[Schneibster]

Well, "other people's secrets==evil" anyway. Assange didn't have any problem with being all upset about his little sex secrets being "free."

But those aren't gummint secrets. You're changing the subject.

Sauce, goose, gander elephant.

FIFY

Give the man a cigar. That's why the warrantless wiretapping without judicial oversight was such a big deal, and why the NYT was doing their job writing about it. Journalism is an institution of democracy just as much as government.

Indeed. But there's a difference between revealing that the government was wiretapping people without warrants and revealing WHICH people were being wiretapped and WHAT WAS SAID during the wiretapped conversations in a manner that would endanger, for example, confidential informants working undercover to catch mob bosses that ends up getting the informants and/or federal agents killed.

That's the equivalent of what Assange has done.

But it's not what he thought he was doing when he started out,

How do you know? Are you a co-conspirator privy to his intention and thoughts, or are you making ex-recto assumptions that fit your predetermined outcome?

Read the next part before you start getting your panties in a twist.

or there'd never have been a decryption key because the data would have come out unencrypted, duh.

If he was an honest broker of information that was important in demonstrating governmental corruption or malice he would not have retained, much less parked in cyberspace the entirety of the illegally-obtained data dump under an encryption key that he himself threatened to release publicly if he was arrested.

It's proof of what he was thinking when he started out. There's no reason to bother otherwise; just release it all, unencrypted, and then go hide. You tried to game the system by breaking this phrase in half. It didn't work. Stop changing the subject; stop gaming the system.

[Seth]

It's proof of what he was thinking when he started out. There's no reason to bother otherwise; just release it all, unencrypted, and then go hide. You tried to game the system by breaking this phrase in half. It didn't work. Stop changing the subject; stop gaming the system.

Horseshit. He encrypted and parked the bulk of the data precisely as a "nuclear option" he could threaten to use if he was arrested for espionage, which he knew full well he was committing. That's what he was thinking. He didn't want to "go hide," he wanted to jack off while thinking about how famous he was going to be as the man who brought down the US government. He wanted to make himself and Wikileaks famous while still protecting himself from arrest and prosecution using blackmail.

Well, he's well and truly fucked now.

[Schneibster]

It's proof of what he was thinking when he started out. There's no reason to bother otherwise; just release it all, unencrypted, and then go hide. You tried to game the system by breaking this phrase in half. It didn't work. Stop changing the subject; stop gaming the system.

Horseshit.

No, it's not horseshit, even though you tried to pretend I hadn't proved it by splitting the proof in half. It's proven above. All there is to it.

Stop trying to game the system or I'll stop talking to you.

[Seth]

It's proof of what he was thinking when he started out. There's no reason to bother otherwise; just release it all, unencrypted, and then go hide. You tried to game the system by breaking this phrase in half. It didn't work. Stop changing the subject; stop gaming the system.

Horseshit.

No, it's not horseshit, even though you tried to pretend I hadn't proved it by splitting the proof in half. It's proven above. All there is to it.

Stop trying to game the system or I'll stop talking to you.

Horseshit. Assange didn't want to go hide, nor would he have needed to do so. He could have just declined to accept the data or returned it to the government uninspected and he would have not been in any jeopardy.

He told everyone that he had hidden an encrypted archive and that he did it precisely to cover his and his cohort's asses in case the government came after them. After his original servers were shut down as a result, they moved them to Switzerland to try to keep the information in play. His intention was always to release information harmful to Americans and their interests and use the unredacted encrypted data as a tool for blackmail so that he wouldn't be arrested and shoved into a shit-filled hole somewhere as he combed through the data looking for things to embarrass the US and other nations with.

He's an arrogant, self-righteous prick, a rapist, and an all-around evil motherfucker who is getting people killed. And that's all there is to it.

[Schneibster]

It's proof of what he was thinking when he started out. There's no reason to bother otherwise; just release it all, unencrypted, and then go hide. You tried to game the system by breaking this phrase in half. It didn't work. Stop changing the subject; stop gaming the system.

Horseshit.

No, it's not horseshit, even though you tried to pretend I hadn't proved it by splitting the proof in half. It's proven above. All there is to it.

Stop trying to game the system or I'll stop talking to you.

Horseshit. Assange didn't want to go hide, nor would he have needed to do so. He could have just declined to accept the data or returned it to the government uninspected and he would have not been in any jeopardy.

First, "horseshit" in this instance is posturing, because that's a pretty unlikely scenario for someone who deposits an encrypted copy of the data remotely. Second, I never said he wanted to go hide, nor that he needed to do so; I said if he had intended to simply reveal it all, he need not have encrypted it. Third, to assert that he'd steal it to simply return it is ludicrous, even for your logic-chopping self.

Stop trying to game the system. Not sure I'll stop talking to you after all; it was pretty fun watching you talk about insurance and politics.

[Seth]

It's proof of what he was thinking when he started out. There's no reason to bother otherwise; just release it all, unencrypted, and then go hide. You tried to game the system by breaking this phrase in half. It didn't work. Stop changing the subject; stop gaming the system.

Horseshit.

No, it's not horseshit, even though you tried to pretend I hadn't proved it by splitting the proof in half. It's proven above. All there is to it.

Stop trying to game the system or I'll stop talking to you.

Horseshit. Assange didn't want to go hide, nor would he have needed to do so. He could have just declined to accept the data or returned it to the government uninspected and he would have not been in any jeopardy.

First, "horseshit" in this instance is posturing, because that's a pretty unlikely scenario for someone who deposits an encrypted copy of the data remotely.

No it's not. He SAID he set up an encrypted file in multiple locations in cyberspace to prevent the government from simply arresting him. He TOLD US that his intent was to protect Wikileaks' ability to disclose the documents little by little without fear of being interfered with. It's perfectly fucking clear that he set up the encrypted file to cover his ass so he could drag out the release as long as possible, thereby aggrandizing himself and getting lots of press for Wikileaks. It's also perfectly clear that he's an arrogant, smug, self-righteous prick who doesn't give a fuck about anyone but himself and his ego, and that includes fomenting wars among nations and getting people killed by revealing top secret military and diplomatic information.

Well, his safety net has been blown by his own incompetence, and now he's got nowhere to hide and all the various governments he's embarrassed and compromised have absolutely no reason whatsoever to refrain from offing him in an appropriately plausibly deniable manner.

He's well and truly fucked himself out of his own hubris, and he's going to get what he richly deserves, I hope.

Second, I never said he wanted to go hide, nor that he needed to do so; I said if he had intended to simply reveal it all, he need not have encrypted it. Third, to assert that he'd steal it to simply return it is ludicrous, even for your logic-chopping self.

He revealed a lot of uncensored information. He only censored stuff HE (or his co-conspirators) thought was important, but he knows fuck-all about what information can and cannot be used by hostile forces against our troops or personnel. He revealed military strategy, tactics and doctrine and operational details about how our forces operate in Afghanistan, all of which is information that Al Quaeda can and is using to kill our troops. He revealed diplomatic information that is harmful to diplomatic efforts and he has no way of knowing which details will reveal enough about the negotiations to identify particular persons who may be placed at risk.

He's a fucking amateur playing with people's lives and he's not qualified to assess what is justifiably top secret and what is not. Only the governments involved, who have ALREADY MADE THAT DETERMINATION are qualified to do so.

And your assertion is horseshit because he DID intent to release it all, as he said, if anyone tried to stop him from parceling it out at his leisure. That's WHY he put the entire unredacted encrypted file on-line. If he didn't intend to release it if he was placed under duress, then he would not have put the file out there, now would he?

So, once again, I say horseshit. Assange is guilty of espionage and needs to go down.

Stop trying to game the system. Not sure I'll stop talking to you after all; it was pretty fun watching you talk about insurance and politics.

My cock is absolutely rigid at the prospect that you might deign to talk to me...not

[Schneibster]

Horseshit.

No, it's not horseshit, even though you tried to pretend I hadn't proved it by splitting the proof in half. It's proven above. All there is to it.

Stop trying to game the system or I'll stop talking to you.

Horseshit. Assange didn't want to go hide, nor would he have needed to do so. He could have just declined to accept the data or returned it to the government uninspected and he would have not been in any jeopardy.

First, "horseshit" in this instance is posturing, because that's a pretty unlikely scenario for someone who deposits an encrypted copy of the data remotely.

No it's not. He SAID he set up an encrypted file in multiple locations in cyberspace to prevent the government from simply arresting him. He TOLD US that his intent was to protect Wikileaks' ability to disclose the documents little by little without fear of being interfered with. It's perfectly fucking clear that he set up the encrypted file to cover his ass so he could drag out the release as long as possible, thereby aggrandizing himself and getting lots of press for Wikileaks. It's also perfectly clear that he's an arrogant, smug, self-righteous prick who doesn't give a fuck about anyone but himself and his ego, and that includes fomenting wars among nations and getting people killed by revealing top secret military and diplomatic information.

I do not dispute most of what you say there. The only thing I dispute is that he didn't think he was doing some sort of good for more than just himself. I note that many people are perfectly capable of being hypocritical, and I see no problem leveling that charge at Assange. Nevertheless, he did, in my OPINION, sorry if you're so shit-scared by me having one that you have to whine every time you see it, think he was doing something, not necessarily entirely good, but partly. And the reason I think so is because he said so. Which is as good evidence as anything you're presenting.

As far as whether it's a remote scenario, and more importantly whether your "horseshit" is merely posturing, I'd say it's pretty remote to say that someone who would bother putting an encrypted copy out to protect themself wouldn't be seeking to continue their activities, and if they were completely self-interested he can only have expected the rest of us would self-interestedly ignore him. Then he would have become a true data terrorist, by releasing the data unencrypted in the first place. His goal can only have been to redact the portions of it that he felt would produce war, and in that I can only see at least the self-respect of initial good intentions. Your analysis is flawed, and you've been caught posturing to try to support it. Would you like to make it even more obvious by indulging in further system-gaming to try to cover up your mess?

Well, his safety net has been blown by his own incompetence, and now he's got nowhere to hide and all the various governments he's embarrassed and compromised have absolutely no reason whatsoever to refrain from offing him in an appropriately plausibly deniable manner.

Well, other than ethics.

He's well and truly fucked himself out of his own hubris, and he's going to get what he richly deserves, I hope.

If you were more interested in ethics, I'd be more sanguine that that meant, in your estimation, a jail cell. As it stands, he allowed a criminal act; he deserves, IMO, a criminal conviction for it. I might or might not think differently if he hadn't allowed everything to be revealed. And I would certainly think differently if he had simply released it. I might even hesitate to object to capital punishment, though I likely would still come down on the side of "no." I simply don't see any justification for killing people who kill people to show people that killing people is wrong. It's stupid. Never mind the ethics.

Second, I never said he wanted to go hide, nor that he needed to do so; I said if he had intended to simply reveal it all, he need not have encrypted it. Third, to assert that he'd steal it to simply return it is ludicrous, even for your logic-chopping self.

He revealed a lot of uncensored information. He only censored stuff HE (or his co-conspirators) thought was important,

Ummm. duh? You gotta be brighter than this.

but he knows fuck-all about what information can and cannot be used by hostile forces against our troops or personnel. He revealed military strategy, tactics and doctrine and operational details about how our forces operate in Afghanistan, all of which is information that Al Quaeda can and is using to kill our troops. He revealed diplomatic information that is harmful to diplomatic efforts and he has no way of knowing which details will reveal enough about the negotiations to identify particular persons who may be placed at risk.

While all you say is true, how is this relevant to whether I said he wanted to go hide or not?

He's a fucking amateur playing with people's lives and he's not qualified to assess what is justifiably top secret and what is not. Only the governments involved, who have ALREADY MADE THAT DETERMINATION are qualified to do so.

I continue to be unclear on how this relates to whether I said he wanted to go hide. You are nearing another award.

And your assertion is horseshit

You're already done with "horseshit." Apparently you forgot.

because he DID intent to release it all,

Ludicrous. Why ever bother to encrypt it?

as he said, if anyone tried to stop him from parceling it out at his leisure.

You are now having a problem with "if." This is the second time you've had a problem with it today. And in this thread, too. Sorry you're having trouble. How about if you try again later?

Meanwhile, you never said anything at all that related to whether I said he wanted to go hide or not. So here is your award: