"Alt-right" Still Parading Ignorance, Stupidity, Malice, Etc.

[Hermit]

He keeps banging on about Portland. I don't think all the people on the street were organised antifa...

It seems that some of them went over the top in terms of property damage, but it is not typical of antifa; mostly they provide a robust street presence at right-wing rallies...

And the disturbances were not insurrections. They were riots and lootings at worst. The definition of insurrection is "a violent uprising against an authority or government" - like the storming of the capitol on the 6th of January, for instance, during which a crowd of right-wingers tried to prevent a democratically elected person from becoming the president of the US government.

[Joe]

He keeps banging on about Portland. I don't think all the people on the street were organised antifa...

It seems that some of them went over the top in terms of property damage, but it is not typical of antifa; mostly they provide a robust street presence at right-wing rallies...

Yeahbut Trump said so, so it's got to be true right?

Who caused the violence at protests? It wasn’t antifa.

The Pinocchio Test
It is virtually impossible to account for the beliefs and motives of every person at every protest. And, consequently, virtually impossible to say that no one with antifa beliefs was involved in any violence.

But beliefs and orchestrating organized violence are not the same. There has not yet been a single confirmed case in which someone who self-identifies as antifa led violent acts at any of the protests across the country. The president and his administration have placed an outsize burden of blame on antifa, without waiting for arrest data and completed investigations.

This is not the first time Trump has pointed to antifa as a shadowy nemesis. But the misinformation created by his continued insistence of antifa’s involvement has led to more chaos and violence in an already turbulent moment. As always, the burden of proof rests with the speaker — and the administration has provided no evidence, only assertions that it has evidence.

Trump earns Four Pinocchios.

LEAKED DOCUMENTS SHOW POLICE KNEW FAR-RIGHT EXTREMISTS WERE THE REAL THREAT AT PROTESTS, NOT “ANTIFA”

Michael German, a former FBI agent specializing in domestic terrorism and current fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice, said the materials were rife with examples of law enforcement intelligence being politicized in ways that endangered both protesters and police alike. “Terrorism is distinguished from other violence by its political nature and, as a result, counterterrorism is often highly politicized as well,” German told The Intercept. “Here we’re seeing where this politicization of counterterrorism is being reflected in intelligence documents that are going out and are intended to inform state and local law enforcement on the ground.” He added: “Overall, what you see is a strange sensationalization of the antifa threats — and that doesn’t exist when looking at the boogaloo documents.”

German argued that the impulse to paint both sides of the political spectrum with the same brush, despite the fact that only the far right is actively killing people, is among the most dangerous features of modern American law enforcement. In his review of the documents produced in response to the recent protests, German said purported “threats” from antifa were routinely overblown, often framed vandalism as terrorism and were typically absent of concrete evidence of serious criminal activity.

RIGHTWING VIOLENCE: WHITE SUPREMACIST GROUPS FOUND BEHIND MOST OF THIS YEAR’S DOMESTIC TERROR ATTACKS

White supremacists and other rightwing extremists have been responsible for 67% of domestic terror attacks and plots so far this year, with at least half of that violence targeting protesters, according to a new analysis from a centrist thinktank.

The report found only a single deadly “far-left” attack in 2020, the shooting of Aaron Danielson, a rightwing activist, by a self-described “anti-fascist” during a protest in Portland this August. Experts on extremism said this was the first killing linked to an anti-fascist in the United States in 25 years.

Violent rightwing actors were responsible for 41 politically motivated attacks and plots this year, while “far-left” actors were responsible for 12, according to analysts at the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), who have assembled a database of domestic terror attacks going back to 1994.

The new data stands in stark contrast to claims by Donald Trump and justice department officials, who have responded to massive protests against police violence and racism by arguing that leftwing violence is a major threat, and that anti-fascist, or “antifa,” activists should be designated as a domestic terror group.

Far-Right Infiltrators and Agitators in George Floyd Protests: Indicators of White Supremacists

The demographics of a largely white, young, and destructive group fit more with a movement known as accelerationists than Black Lives Matter.

The accelerationists, if you have never heard the term, are an extreme subset of white nationalism whose goal is to bring about chaos and destruction. The basic tenet of accelerationism argues that since Western governments are inherently corrupt, the best (and only) thing supremacists can do is to accelerate the end of society by sowing chaos and aggravating political tensions. “Accelerationist ideas have been cited in mass shooters’ manifestos — explicitly, in the case of the New Zealand killer — and are frequently referenced in white supremacist web forums and chat rooms,” Zack Beauchamp explained.

White Supremacists pretending to host a protest to honor Floyd George on Facebook to whip up violence in San Diego were posted on the BLMSD social media warning people not to go and that it was a white supremacist organized rally. People attending demonstrations remarked on the fact that the demographics were wrong, in places like Oakland where the majority of the destruction was perpetrated by young Caucasian men has inspired not just people on social media but reporting in the mainstream media to properly question whether this is a form of infiltration by outside extremist elements.

A report by Vice News about right-wing infiltrators in the protests notes “hardcore ‘accelerationists’ … are encouraging their neo-Nazi followers to go to the protests and carry out acts of violence against black people.”

Accelerationists follow the blueprint laid out by neo-Nazi James Mason in The Siege (not the film with Denzel Washington) whose writing inspires Charles Manson types of killing sprees. Mason, living in obscurity in Denver until he was brought out of retirement by Atomwaffen, a right wing Neo Nazi group. The goal of accelerationism is to burn everything down and to use violence both to target enemies and instigate an overt and extreme response from the government. Their strategy echoes Gustavo Gorriti’s writings about the Shining Path terrorist group that the movement’s “goal was to provoke blind, excessive reactions from the state… Blows laid on indiscriminately would also provoke among those unjustly or disproportionately affected an intense resentment of the government.”

Similarly accelerationists hope to “demolish the state apparatus that stands between them and a white-dominated future.” And the White Supremacists here could be of a different orientation too – organized to discredit the protestors with no clear or deliberate vision for greater political change in mind.

TL;DR Antifa did it.

[Brian Peacock]

Not to mention reports like these from last August...

Trump deployed ‘secret police’ to Portland to provoke violence for campaign ads, Ron Wyden (video)

...and...

Federal customs officials said Friday that their agents had detained a demonstrator in Portland, Ore., in a widely seen video circulating online that showed two men in apparent military garb taking a young man wearing all black into custody, defending the apprehension by describing the man as being suspected of attacking federal agents and property.

This defense came as federal authorities were under criticism for their tactics from elected officials, civil rights activists and demonstrators, including one in Portland who described being “terrified” during a similar encounter.

...

He was detained and searched. One man asked him if he had any weapons; he did not. They drove him to the federal courthouse and placed him in a holding cell, he said. Two officers eventually returned to read his Miranda rights and ask if he would waive those rights to answer a few questions; he did not.

Almost as suddenly as they had grabbed him off the street, the men let him go. The federal officers who snatched him off the street as he was walking home from a peaceful protest did not tell him why he had been detained or provide him any record of an arrest, he told The Post. As far as he knows, he has not been charged with any crimes. And, Pettibone said, he did not know who detained him.

His detention, which was first reported by Oregon Public Broadcasting, and videos of similar actions have raised alarm bells for many. Legal scholars questioned whether the detentions pass constitutional muster.

“Arrests require probable cause that a federal crime had been committed, that is, specific information indicating that the person likely committed a federal offense, or a fair probability that the person committed a federal offense,” Orin Kerr, a professor at University of California at Berkeley Law School, told The Post. “If the agents are grabbing people because they may have been involved in protests, that’s not probable cause.”

During a video news conference Friday, Portland Mayor Ted Wheeler twice called the federal police in his city President Trump’s “personal army” and said that he is joining a chorus of Oregon’s elected officials in sending a clear message to Washington: “Take your troops out of Portland.”

“This is part of a coordinated strategy out of Trump’s White House to use federal troops to bolster his sagging polling data, and it is an absolute abuse of federal law enforcement officials,” Wheeler said. “As we were starting to see things de-escalate, their actions last Saturday and every night since have actually ratcheted up the tension on our streets.”...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2 ... ce=twitter

Given a few more months and Trump would be trying to set fire to the Capitol building and blaming it on antifa.

How Pro-Trump Forces Pushed a Lie About Antifa at the Capitol Riot

How Republican Are Warping Reality Around the Capitol Attack

Fact check: Men who stormed Capitol identified by Reuters are not undercover Antifa as posts claim

I guess this is the kind of thing to expect if/when Hitler's speeches are your bedtime reading.

[Seabass]

But fellas... those are all biased left-wing propaganda sources that should be ignored. If you want to know the real truth about the world you can only get it from muscly, gay-bashing far-right youtube vloggers.

[Joe]

That's right. When my local newspaper, one of only seven to endorse Trump in 2020, published those stories, they were suddenly woke sissies.

Mind you, this is the paper where Seth was a regular opinion columnist.

[Cunt]

No, I'm just asking you a question to better understand your position. A question you seem reluctant to answer for some reason.

You said I wouldn't be proud to stand up to fascists.

So I just won't be taking you seriously for awhile. You should be used to it. Your namecalling and stuff must bring it on to you often.

[Cunt]

mostly they provide a robust street presence at right-wing rallies...

Ah yes, have to stop those on the other side of the political aisle from speaking, and stop any reporting which isn't favourable.

Very noble-sounding group.

I wouldn't be proud of stopping a speaker. Would find it much more laudable if they had better speech.

Of course I may have missed their erudite speakers...

[Brian Peacock]

Meh, you can only maintain that particular veil of ignorance by putting aside what ultra-nationalist, white supremacist and neo-nazi groups actually stand for.

And before you hop in to deflect and distract with your usual charge that these are merely terms of abuse that people on the Left use to criticise and demonise people on the Right, you should at least make some honest effort to demonstrate in what regard it's wrong to call groups like The Proud Boys or the EDL etc ultra-nationalists, white supremacists or neo-nazis.

[Seabass]

Groups that Cunt has a problem with:

Antifa
BLM




Groups that Cunt has NO problem with:

Proud boys
Three Percenters
Oath keepers
Boogaloo boys
VDare
Identity Evropa
Atomwaffen





There is a pattern here.

mostly they provide a robust street presence at right-wing rallies...

Ah yes, have to stop those on the other side of the political aisle from speaking, and stop any reporting which isn't favourable.

So here's Cunt once again downplaying the threat of actual fascist groups and portraying them as merely people from the other side of the political aisle just trying to speak.

Cunt is a fascist sympathizer. There, I said it.

[Cunt]

Well, some of them have group charters, which you could read.

With the Proud Boys, their leader was a non-white (might still be) so how dose that fit with your 'white supremacist' narrative?

What about their charter do you object to specifically? I haven't read it, but am not interested in membership, so didn't see a reason to.

---------

Which fascist was I sympathizing with? An actual fascist? Or someone you are doing namecalling on?

Should I simply believe you about who is, and isn't fascist? Is there a list, or will you just say everyone who disagrees with you politically is a fascist?

[Brian Peacock]

Well, some of them have group charters, which you could read.

With the Proud Boys, their leader was a non-white (might still be) so how dose that fit with your 'white supremacist' narrative?

You forgot ultra-nationalist and neo-Nazi there.

What about their charter do you object to specifically? I haven't read it, but am not interested in membership, so didn't see a reason to.

Provide a link to it and I'll tell you. If you haven't read it then the mere existence of a charter cannot inform your defence of them.

Which fascist was I sympathizing with? An actual fascist? Or someone you are doing namecalling on?

Hmmm.

And before you hop in to deflect and distract with your usual charge that these are merely terms of abuse that people on the Left use to criticise and demonise people on the Right, you should at least make some honest effort to demonstrate in what regard it's wrong to call groups like The Proud Boys or the EDL etc ultra-nationalists, white supremacists or neo-nazis.

See what I mean?

Should I simply believe you about who is, and isn't fascist?

No, you should take a little time to listen to what these groups say about themselves, about their own ideals and aspirations, and the actions they think necessary to fulfil their political goals. Then you should find some reliable sources that document and/or report on their activity.

Is there a list, or will you just say everyone who disagrees with you politically is a fascist?

There is a list, of sorts, on which a number of far-Right groups appear.

FBI raises neo-Nazi threat level to same as Isis

FBI Warns of Far-Right Terrorism as Trump Boosts Hate Group

Racist extremists pose most deadly terrorist threat to US, intelligence report warns

Every time we have this conversation you have to pretend that we haven't had it before, that you haven't been given the evidence about who and what these groups are and what they stand for that you've asked for, and then you have to say that nobody can make a fair and honest assessment, let alone a judgement, about whether the kind of society these groups aspire to is something that will be better or worse than what we have at the moment. As I said before, you can only argue these points over-and-over by maintaining a veil of ignorance, not only about the nature of these groups but, ironically, about your own views about them also. And yet, at the same time, you're very quick to condemn the people who don't think these groups have the best interests of the community at heart and to say that it's absolutely wrong to oppose them - a kind of fascism in fact.

I'm not convinced by your apparent and ongoing ignorance here Cunt. I don't think you are either. So why continue with the charade?

[JimC]

mostly they provide a robust street presence at right-wing rallies...

Ah yes, have to stop those on the other side of the political aisle from speaking, and stop any reporting which isn't favourable.

I wasn't referring to demonstrations (usually at Universities) against particular speakers, usually from the right. These are often, from what I gather, organised by local students. I do have some issues with stopping people from speaking, unless they are actually doing the full Nazi thing, advocating violence against Jews and Blacks.

I was referring to the main role of antifa, being counter-demonstrators at far right rallies, to show that neo-nazis and racist loons are not unopposed.

[Brian Peacock]

He understood the context of your reply perfectly well Jim - which is probably why it seemed like a good idea to change it.

[Cunt]

mostly they provide a robust street presence at right-wing rallies...

Ah yes, have to stop those on the other side of the political aisle from speaking, and stop any reporting which isn't favourable.

I wasn't referring to demonstrations (usually at Universities) against particular speakers, usually from the right. These are often, from what I gather, organised by local students. I do have some issues with stopping people from speaking, unless they are actually doing the full Nazi thing, advocating violence against Jews and Blacks.

I was referring to the main role of antifa, being counter-demonstrators at far right rallies, to show that neo-nazis and racist loons are not unopposed.

That sounds like counter-demonstration is the thing they do which is most laudable.

I'm properly impressed with that effort, and will take it into consideration when deciding if that group has done anything beneficial.

I mean, I already knew that nazis and loons are not unopposed, so maybe I'm just too smart to be their target audience.

[Seabass]

so maybe I'm just too smart