Change the name of Israel

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by mistermack » Wed May 16, 2018 10:44 pm

JimC wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 pm
So, the lack of any ability to compromise in the slightest, on both sides, means no end in sight for death and destruction.
This "on both sides" is just propaganda that you've bought into. It wouldn't matter what compromise the Palestinians agreed to, the Jews will never yield an inch. And the USA will back them to the hilt all the way.
It's the Jews that have all the power, not the Palestinians.
When one side has all the power, it's bleeding obvious that what is happening, is exactly what they want to happen.

They know how to provoke the Palestinians. It's easy to keep them on the boil, and pretend that it's them who are the problem. I'm amazed that you can't see that.

The current tactic is the moving of the US embassy. Once that wears off, they will start something else.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Wed May 16, 2018 10:49 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 pm
The biggest stumbling block to this situation in the easy cynicism which maintains that nothing can be done about it.
Well, I'm not exactly saying that - it could be sorted if the opposing sides were not so entrenched and polarised. Can you, or any political pundit, see a way for the 2 sides to compromise?

So, it's not "easy cynicism", it's extremely depressing, pessimistic realism...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Wed May 16, 2018 10:52 pm

mistermack wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:44 pm
JimC wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:32 pm
So, the lack of any ability to compromise in the slightest, on both sides, means no end in sight for death and destruction.
This "on both sides" is just propaganda that you've bought into. It wouldn't matter what compromise the Palestinians agreed to, the Jews will never yield an inch. And the USA will back them to the hilt all the way.
It's the Jews that have all the power, not the Palestinians.
When one side has all the power, it's bleeding obvious that what is happening, is exactly what they want to happen.

They know how to provoke the Palestinians. It's easy to keep them on the boil, and pretend that it's them who are the problem. I'm amazed that you can't see that.

The current tactic is the moving of the US embassy. Once that wears off, they will start something else.
It's like keeping a cat in a cage, and constantly poking it with needles.
Nothing I've posted says that the Israelis are blameless, or that they are not playing games to provoke Palestinian reaction (which the hard-line Palestinians and others also do, to stop any traction from their moderates...)

Your position, however, just as much as the hard-line Zionists, locks the current stalemate in place, and sees zero photons at the end of a bloody long tunnel...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by mistermack » Wed May 16, 2018 11:06 pm

JimC wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:52 pm
Your position, however, just as much as the hard-line Zionists, locks the current stalemate in place, and sees zero photons at the end of a bloody long tunnel...
No it doesn't, because I have no power.
The only people who have any power to change things are the Jews. And you have to be blind not to see what changes they are making day by day, year by year.
I honestly can't see how you can buy into that "both sides" crap.
Do you REALLY believe that compromise by the Palestinians would be met with any concessions? You're living in la la land.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by JimC » Wed May 16, 2018 11:18 pm

There would be no compromise by the current Israeli leadership, agreed. But perhaps the Israeli people will vote in a more moderate bunch, and perhaps we'll have an end to US automatic support (which emboldens the hard-liners) when Trump goes...

And perhaps the Palestinians will also realise that a policy of rejecting Israel's right to exist also locks the stalemate in place.

I'm not holding my breath, mind you...
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Thu May 17, 2018 12:51 am

Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:04 pm
Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:49 pm
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
You're an Islamaphobe because your words expose you as such. Because your callous indifference (actually almost glee) to Palestinians dictates you are.
Lack of supporting evidence and outright falsehoods noted.

Utterly tedious.
Dude, you practically gloated that the Israelis had done a good job slaughtering Palestinians. Self-righteous indignation is your only response. It's utterly appalling what you said. Reminds me of the apologists for Bloody Sunday.
I did no such thing. I said Israel's tactics were effective at minimising Israeli casualties. This is a fact, not a moral judgment on an operation that I have already described as excessive.

Stop inventing shit.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 17, 2018 1:21 am

Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 5:18 pm
Israel is not a terrorist state, and is in full compliance with its obligations.
Bullshit. Not reading past this point. They are in violation of tens of UN resolutions.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 17, 2018 1:31 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:49 pm
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
You're an Islamaphobe because your words expose you as such. Because your callous indifference (actually almost glee) to Palestinians dictates you are.
Lack of supporting evidence and outright falsehoods noted.

Utterly tedious.
What, you can't even remember what you said a single day ago? :roll:
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Animavore » Thu May 17, 2018 3:37 am

Strontium Dog wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:51 am
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:04 pm
Strontium Dog wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:49 pm
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 8:40 pm
You're an Islamaphobe because your words expose you as such. Because your callous indifference (actually almost glee) to Palestinians dictates you are.
Lack of supporting evidence and outright falsehoods noted.

Utterly tedious.
Dude, you practically gloated that the Israelis had done a good job slaughtering Palestinians. Self-righteous indignation is your only response. It's utterly appalling what you said. Reminds me of the apologists for Bloody Sunday.
I did no such thing. I said Israel's tactics were effective at minimising Israeli casualties. This is a fact, not a moral judgment on an operation that I have already described as excessive.

Stop inventing shit.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Svartalf » Thu May 17, 2018 7:57 am

JimC wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 11:18 pm
There would be no compromise by the current Israeli leadership, agreed. But perhaps the Israeli people will vote in a more moderate bunch, and perhaps we'll have an end to US automatic support (which emboldens the hard-liners) when Trump goes...

And perhaps the Palestinians will also realise that a policy of rejecting Israel's right to exist also locks the stalemate in place.

I'm not holding my breath, mind you...
the Israelis electing a more moderate bnunch is unlikely, it's the moderates who form a silen t majority, and the extremists who go vote en masse to try and elect crazies to office, that's why that **** netanyahu still is in power, and why likud has to make compromises with the far right ultra religious parties to get a parliamentary majority.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by mistermack » Thu May 17, 2018 9:24 am

It's perfectly easy to see the Jewish states real intentions. You just have to ignore what they say, and look at what they do.
They use protesters for target practice, and constantly build new settlements on Palestinian lands.
They WANT to keep unrest going in Gaza, and they will NEVER give up an inch of land.

They wanted a civil war in Syria and Libya, and they got one. With weapons and support promised and supplied by the west.
It doesn't matter that Assad has won. Syria is neutralised as an economic and military force. Libya is in bits. It's all been for the benefit of Israel.

And what the FUCK is Israel doing in the Eurovision Song Contest? Answer: It's to make them look like "one of us". It's not even in Europe.
So now they are admitting countries like Australia, to disguise the exceptional treatment of Israel.

The world seems to be jumping through hoops for their benefit.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu May 17, 2018 11:32 am

JimC wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 pm
The biggest stumbling block to this situation in the easy cynicism which maintains that nothing can be done about it.
Well, I'm not exactly saying that - it could be sorted if the opposing sides were not so entrenched and polarised. Can you, or any political pundit, see a way for the 2 sides to compromise?

So, it's not "easy cynicism", it's extremely depressing, pessimistic realism...
Sorry Jim. It was a general comment rather than a direct reply. But while people are throwing up their hands and shaking their heads and saying the situation is essentially unresolvable they're not asking themselves the important stuff like how long are we prepared to live in fear, why isn't securing a lasting peace our top priority, or what do we actually need to do--what action can we take and what compromises can we make--to actually achieve the latter and put the former behind us once and for all.

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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Forty Two » Thu May 17, 2018 12:50 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

I asked because you appeared to be doing the sectarian shuffle - it's always the other lot who are responsible and it's always down to them to satisfy the conditions of the other-other lot first.
No, that's not my position. Both sides must abide by the terms of agreements made. Israel did abide by the Oslo Accords, for example, and the Palestinians did not, right from the start.

Also, this about who is doing what. Iran funds Hamas, and Hamas has fomented these Israel Day and Nakba day protests, and they've done it regularly. This is not new. Most of the people killed, the 58, were Hamas folks, but there are women and children in the mix (attacking the fence and Israeli soldiers) because Hamas literally puts them in harms way on purpose. Not only do they do that, but they hide their military/weapons behind schools and hospitals.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Look, Gaza is a humanitarian disaster area.
Because of Hamas. Israel is not in Gaza. Gaza is not part of Israel.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm
Egypt, Israel, and the PA bear and share responsibility for this. Sure Hamas are a bunch of ideological zealots, bolstered by Iran, who put their own interests first - preferring to posture and spend what little money there is on guns and bullets rather than ensuring a stable power supply or sanitation services, schools and hospitals, teachers and doctors and the like. But Hamas is not the Palestinian people, and the Palestinian people are not Hamas.
It doesn't change the fact that the Palestinian people overwhelmingly support the goals of Hamas, which is anti-Jew and out to destroy Israel. And, it doesn't change the fact that they use civilians as human shields, and send civilians into harms way for the precise purpose of creating the controversy that they create. Israel is not to blame for that.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Gaza is under a strict economic blockade, a stranglehold tightly enforced by both Israel and Eygpt - there's no jobs, no meaningful agriculture, no manufacturing, no exports, and the main imports are drawn either from a very limit range of Israeli-approved humanitarian aid or the empty promises of religious ideologues.
Solution - descry and disavow terrorism and accept partition, and state that what is desired is to live peacefully side-by-side with the Israeli state. Ask for help from the UN to fix those problems.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

And as is always the case in regions of social breakdown the nasty guys with the guns get to control what little resources there are along with deciding who's going to get them - "Your children to the fence or you won't get your two bags of flour."
I know, that's horrible. That's the point I made. It's not Israel indiscriminately killing women and children. It's Hamas and the Palestinian leadership fomenting violent riots and purposefully putting people in harms way.

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm
Wilfully and persistently conflating the Palestinian people for Hamas is the kind of political bollocks that we've heard over and over again, in Northern Ireland, the Balkans, Chechnya, and Myanmar etc.
I don't conflate them at all. The fact remains, Israel has a right to exist. It was legally formed in exactly the same way as Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Jordan, out of the carcass of the Ottoman Empire. It is not an illegal state. It is not a stolen state. The fact also remains that the Palestinian Arabs and all the Arab league countries rejected the 1948 partition, preferring instead to go to war and try to destroy Israel, and it was that Arab-initiated war that caused people to flee the scene and become refugees, first in Jordan and then when abandoned by Jordan, they became the stateless area. Stateless, why? Because they refuse to accept a two state solution. That's been the case since then, and the prevailing view among Palestinians - the people, not just Hamas - is that Jews are evil, and Israel should be destroyed because it's not just the west bank that is partially occupied territory - it's all of Israel - the entire state of Israel they think is occupied by an invader and those invaders are to be eradicated.


Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm
It's a politically convenient method for casting the other lot, all of them, as fundamentally and inherently malign, devious, immoral, and violent, and of providing the other-other lot with the illusion of moral superiority that justifies whatever action is politically expedient to take against them.
Nobody is doing that. The country that is maligned the most in the media, for example, is Israel. As bizarre as it is, the media paints it as Israel's fault that Palestinians attack the border fence, and attack Israeli soldiers -- they're using kites and balloods to send up molotov cocktails over soldiers to set fires - and to try to set fires to fields and buildings in Israel.

Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm
And it should be no surprise that the situation is boiling over, because as the humanitarian crisis deepens in Gaza, as it is, so grows the desperation and anger of the people - nudged in the back by the nasty guys with guns only to be shot in the face by Israel from the other side of the exclusion zone. Israel is the political, economic, and military force in this stand off, and it's escalation of the enmity between opposing ideologies now appears to be being politically sanctioned and underwritten by the current US administration. This suits the right-wingers and hardliners in Israel - it maintains the requisite level of perpetual threat that justifies their hardline stance and their political pleas that only they can secure and protect Israelis from the slavering hordes at their gate. They have no interest in peace, and indeed need Gaza to be in crisis to justify their existence and their actions. This was shown not too long ago when one high ranking Israeli responded to the idea of Palestinian protesters breaching the fence with something to the effect of, "Let them. We have enough bullets for everyone." Now we're treated to the Israel administration once again shifting the burden entirely onto Hamas, and by extension everyone in Gaza - man, woman and child - making them entirely responsible for Israel's killing of predominantly unarmed protesters on the Gaza side of the exclusion zone. How is peace even possible if that kind of rhetoric reflects the prevailing view of the Israeli administration? So yeah, I call the sectarian shuffle on this kind of reflexive apologetics for Israel's ongoing action in this crisis, and to my mind much of it is a cosy convenience that belies not just a abject failure of common decency but it also handily avoids holding Israel to account for what it's actually done, and continues to do, with regards to Gaza and the Palestinian people.
They aren't unarmed protesters. These were not "peaceful protests." There is no reason for 8 year olds, or infants, to be at violent protests on the border, where they're attacking the fence and Israeli soldiers. Most of the people shot were Hamas men, not women and children and the women and children who were there are dead because of Hamas.

Hamas admits that most of those killed were Hamas members - https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/ ... v13aaQvzIU
senior Hamas official Salah Bardawil said 50 out of the nearly 60 protesters killed Monday were Hamas members, with the others being “from the people.”
Here is an interview on CBC that makes valid points: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as- ... -1.4663690
We didn't send the Palestinians against the fence. Hamas did.

Hamas was very, very open about the goal of this operation. It was to break the fence and kill Israelis and destroy our country.
Hamas sent 40,000 people against our border to break through the border and kill our civilians. That's the only reason.
Hamas sends civilians to die for media coverage - says Hamas -- http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=25414
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 17, 2018 1:00 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 12:50 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Look, Gaza is a humanitarian disaster area.
Because of Hamas. Israel is not in Gaza. Gaza is not part of Israel.
Again, it's hard to take you seriously. Israel (and Egypt) have been blockading Gaza for years. Israel has also bombed the shit out of it.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Gaza is under a strict economic blockade, a stranglehold tightly enforced by both Israel and Eygpt - there's no jobs, no meaningful agriculture, no manufacturing, no exports, and the main imports are drawn either from a very limit range of Israeli-approved humanitarian aid or the empty promises of religious ideologues.
Solution - descry and disavow terrorism and accept partition, and state that what is desired is to live peacefully side-by-side with the Israeli state. Ask for help from the UN to fix those problems.
Again, Israel is in violation of a shitload of UN resolutions. It's only America's veto power on the security council that allows Israel to continue to get away with this.
Brian Peacock wrote:
Wed May 16, 2018 9:38 pm

And as is always the case in regions of social breakdown the nasty guys with the guns get to control what little resources there are along with deciding who's going to get them - "Your children to the fence or you won't get your two bags of flour."
I know, that's horrible. That's the point I made. It's not Israel indiscriminately killing women and children.
Phosphorous bombs (let alone regular bombs) are pretty indiscriminate. You do know that Israel destroys the houses (and usually the whole apartment block) of suicide bombers, right? That's collective punishment.
They aren't unarmed protesters. These were not "peaceful protests."


There were unarmed and peaceful protesters there. Stop watching Fox News.
There is no reason for 8 year olds, or infants, to be at violent protests on the border, where they're attacking the fence and Israeli soldiers. Most of the people shot were Hamas men, not women and children and the women and children who were there are dead because of Hamas.
No they're dead because Israelis shot them, regardless of whether you think Hamas sent them there or not.
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Re: Change the name of Israel

Post by Strontium Dog » Thu May 17, 2018 3:59 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu May 17, 2018 1:00 pm
No they're dead because Israelis shot them, regardless of whether you think Hamas sent them there or not.
LOL at the idea that Hamas's actions are basically immaterial.
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