The gender gap
Re: The gender gap
In every competitive field of endeavor, from sport to business, the evidence is available.
Fair pay is a good idea, but it should be for everyone. Right now, there isn't any, that I can see.
Fair pay is a good idea, but it should be for everyone. Right now, there isn't any, that I can see.
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Re: The gender gap
Sorry for the late reply. The OP question is too simple. People are paid largely on what they FORCEFULLY demand. Of course that forceful demand will lead to many of them being killed, So be it.Cunt wrote:Galaxian, it might actually be worth asking YOU...what are your thoughts on the OP? Or did I miss something you posted?
I do think it allows people to be a step removed from the 'action', as it were...as I think I've said - the perfect passive-aggressive attack for the timid.
Sheep in the field are not paid, they are slaughtered & eaten, because they have not bothered demanding wages, either high or low. It is the same in human society.
There is nothing intrinsically 'fair' in the world, as the wet-behind-the-ears SJWs like to think. If people...an ethnic group, women, gays, or whatever...are too timid to demand great treatment, or if they are not talented enough in some area of study or work, then tough titties.mistermack wrote:Women football players do the same job as men. But nobody wants to watch it.
The top men are paid millions because millions want to watch them.
Should Arsenal pay women footballers similar rates as men?
Should they bollocks.
Tennis is ludicrous. The women at Wimbledon get the same as men, even though they don't pull in the same crowds. And they only play best of three, not five.
They are subsidised by the men. Is it equality, for one sex to have to subsidise the other?
There is NO inherent right for female football players to be paid the same as male ones, if they are crap and no one wants to watch them. There's no reason why there should be a 'reverse prejudice', or ANY kind of prejudice or 'affirmative action', when the recipients are not talented.
If the recipients are talented, that talent will shine and no one can stop it. Think of blues & jazz music. No matter what any power did, the black musicians and dancers and athletes broke right through the glass ceiling and became preeminent in those fields. So it has nothing to do with 'keeping them down'. But in mathematics & physics they are lacking in inherent talent, otherwise they would have shone as they did in Blues & Jazz (etc).
So, the pay will be a combination of type & value of work. The value is set by demand, the type is set by talent. Historians are not much in demand and need an employer, who will wring them dry. Structural engineers do not need an employer and their income reflects how good they are and their reputation.
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There's no Mercy. There's no Justice. There is only Natural Selection! _Galaxian
The more important a news item, the more likely that it's a hidden agenda disinformation_Galaxian
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Re: The gender gap
How do you define justice and fairness in regard to wages or pay for services?JimC wrote:The straw man that he is erecting is the conservative view that people who want a better deal for women in general allegedly think that there are simply zero intrinsic differences (apart from the surface biology) between men and women, and that all psychological differences are purely down to socialisation (i.e. indoctrination by the patriarchy). While there are some on the rigid academic left that will assert that dogmatically, most thinking people who want improvements in the general way women are treated either don't believe that in an absolutist way, or regard it as irrelevant to the issues they're confronting, and base their arguments on justice and fairness rather than the naturalistic fallacy.Brian Peacock wrote:Who says this exactly?mistermack wrote:While people insist on delusional thinking, that men and women are really equal in all respects, you will never make any progress...
I recall that as a young pup, I interviewed for a job with a fellow student of mine. Both of us graduated the same school, same year, same degree, and eerily, I kid you not, we had almost the exact same grade point average. Our resumes were almost identical. We were hired weeks apart, in the spring, and we were hired by the same person, and that was the person who determined the starting pay. We were one year apart in age, and neither had a work experience in the field yet.
I was paid about 15% more than my colleague. I found out from the office manager by accident.
There was one reason why that happened. When I was interviewed, I was told what the starting pay was, as was my colleague during his interview. He agreed to the job without question. I responded with shoulders back and solid eye contact that I did not think the offered pay was competitive, and I demanded a higher wage. They met me about 2/3 of the way to what I countered with.
Afterwards, I felt as if I could have gotten even more, too, and that I shouldn't have settled - I should have stuck more to my guns and not compromised. They needed people. But, I took advantage of their need to get 15% more than they had ever previously paid a similar hire. I exploited their need. To let me go, meant they had to take the time and expense to find another qualified candidate - which of course they could have, sooner-or-later, but they needed someone. So, was that "unfair" to them? Was it unfair to me that they didn't agree to all of my demand? Was it unfair to my colleague? Should they have walked down the hall to his office and said, you know what, on second thought, we're bumping you 15% to be fair? They didn't. They kept quiet, until it was found out by happenstance.
I know this is how it happened, because some time later my colleague and I talked it over after he learned of it from the office manager being careless with paychecks. He was not happy about it.
This is a very clear example of what men faced in the workplace for the century prior to the advent of more or closer equality in the workplace starting in the 70s and 80s. Women see this kind of thing as unique to women, when it is not. Someone paying money for a service generally wants to pay less. Someone getting paid to perform it generally wants to get paid more. How much someone is willing to pay depends on how bad they need the service, and what alternatives they have, together with the available competition. How much someone is willing to accept depends, of course, on how in demand their services are elsewhere. It isn't based on fairness in terms of everyone being treated equally, and never was. Men were not treated equally to other men before women filled up the workforce more than they previously had.
I think there was more sexism in the past, of course, as I think it used to be the case that people would not want to see a woman doctor or lawyer, or would automatically think of them as less capable, and thus they were in lower demand and employers (who were likely also harboring such biases) could easily pay them less because they were more desperate for jobs and less in demand. Price being a function of supply and demand, generally speaking.
But, nowadays, that's not really the case. I think nowadays, we have women doctors and lawyers, and such being considered just as good as men. I think it's only physical jobs where there would still be advance bias, assuming a woman can't carry as much weight as a man, for example, which isn't universally true, but is a good bet if you're talking firefighters or riggers.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The gender gap
You answered your own question there 42. : )
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
Re: The gender gap
I disagree that doctors and lawyers will be equal. Why would we think so? Every single field of human endeavour has been dominated by males.
What IS meritocracy? Is it worth acknowledging that the existence of feminism is evidence that women could not compete in a merit-based system without some organized support?
Only in jobs where the strongest performers are not clearly quantifiable do women claim to be equal.
Pouring concrete is something everyone can do (really, you can be stupid and still do the job) but you will not find women competing reasonably in that field. Go into admin or management though, and there they will be, insisting that they deserve a seat at the table.
What IS meritocracy? Is it worth acknowledging that the existence of feminism is evidence that women could not compete in a merit-based system without some organized support?
Only in jobs where the strongest performers are not clearly quantifiable do women claim to be equal.
Pouring concrete is something everyone can do (really, you can be stupid and still do the job) but you will not find women competing reasonably in that field. Go into admin or management though, and there they will be, insisting that they deserve a seat at the table.
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Update: I've been offered one!
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Re: The gender gap
I don't want a meritocracy. A meritocracy requires a government or administration/bureaucracy to decide who has merit. You see it in some countries, like Brazil, where many many jobs require passage of all sorts of tests to determine merit.
I'm in favor of freedom. If you have a motorcycle shop, and you want to hire your friend who is moderately capable, over a different person who is moderately plus 10 capable, then go for it. Maybe the relationship and ability to work together means more than the plus 10 in motorcycle skills. Maybe the moderately talented guy is a bit cheaper to hire than the more capable person. The best person for the job doesn't always have to get it.
I do believe that in a free society like that, those who are better at a thing tend to rise higher and faster than in a highly regulated society. I think that a freer market results, as a pleasant byproduct, overall those of more merit to do so better than in a highly restricted market. But, that isn't the reason in and of itself to have a freer market.
I'm in favor of freedom. If you have a motorcycle shop, and you want to hire your friend who is moderately capable, over a different person who is moderately plus 10 capable, then go for it. Maybe the relationship and ability to work together means more than the plus 10 in motorcycle skills. Maybe the moderately talented guy is a bit cheaper to hire than the more capable person. The best person for the job doesn't always have to get it.
I do believe that in a free society like that, those who are better at a thing tend to rise higher and faster than in a highly regulated society. I think that a freer market results, as a pleasant byproduct, overall those of more merit to do so better than in a highly restricted market. But, that isn't the reason in and of itself to have a freer market.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The gender gap
The education industry I worked in generally has fixed salaries for any given position or number of years of experience, unaffected by gender, so it's not the kind of private enterprise free-for-all that 42 was describing. However, even in this controlled wages environment, statistically women end up with lower overall lifetime wages and superannuation savings, partly because of taking time off for childbirth and child care, and partly because they are perhaps less pushy in going for promotions to deputy etc. There is some evidence of the beginning of a culture change, where some husbands are prepared to take a few years off after the birth of a child while the wife returns to work.
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Re: The gender gap
The education industry is heavily pink-collar, so any imbalances there can be blamed squarely on the folks voting in unions, employee associations or such.
The voters are in charge, have been awhile.
Funny thing - a female politician just started bleating about having more women in politics here. What a fucking idiot. The politicians get chosen by voters, not affirmative action.
Women who exercise their right to vote, get to say who is in government. Men do too. Guess who has been earning more votes lately? From both sides, I mean.
The voters are in charge, have been awhile.
Funny thing - a female politician just started bleating about having more women in politics here. What a fucking idiot. The politicians get chosen by voters, not affirmative action.
Women who exercise their right to vote, get to say who is in government. Men do too. Guess who has been earning more votes lately? From both sides, I mean.
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The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.
Update: I've been offered one!
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Re: The gender gap
I'm sure that your system is similar to ours, in that political parties have to put up candidates in the seats to be contested. In most cases here, fewer female candidates are put forward on average, and guess what - party leaderships consist mainly of older white males!Cunt wrote:The education industry is heavily pink-collar, so any imbalances there can be blamed squarely on the folks voting in unions, employee associations or such.
The voters are in charge, have been awhile.
Funny thing - a female politician just started bleating about having more women in politics here. What a fucking idiot. The politicians get chosen by voters, not affirmative action.
Women who exercise their right to vote, get to say who is in government. Men do too. Guess who has been earning more votes lately? From both sides, I mean.
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Re: The gender gap
All of whom are chosen by voters. Not women, not men, but VOTERS.JimC wrote:I'm sure that your system is similar to ours, in that political parties have to put up candidates in the seats to be contested. In most cases here, fewer female candidates are put forward on average, and guess what - party leaderships consist mainly of older white males!Cunt wrote:The education industry is heavily pink-collar, so any imbalances there can be blamed squarely on the folks voting in unions, employee associations or such.
The voters are in charge, have been awhile.
Funny thing - a female politician just started bleating about having more women in politics here. What a fucking idiot. The politicians get chosen by voters, not affirmative action.
Women who exercise their right to vote, get to say who is in government. Men do too. Guess who has been earning more votes lately? From both sides, I mean.
Old white guys are the heroes of our age. There is a reason so many people vote for them. Look at any country led by other than older white males, and tell me which you would like to live in most.
Maybe Sweden, with it's full-feminist government covering their shameful heads for Allah? Maybe somewhere not white-led?
Tell me, JimC, where would you choose to live?
If you chose a country run by older, white men, don't feel bad. They really have created the best, most inclusive gentle and opportunity-rich countries.
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The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.
Update: I've been offered one!
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Re: The gender gap
Now i know this is going to be a woefully broad generalisation, but in my experience female colleagues always seem more explicitly interested in doing a good job than the men, and the men always seem more interested in securing others' respect than doing a good job.JimC wrote:The education industry I worked in generally has fixed salaries for any given position or number of years of experience, unaffected by gender, so it's not the kind of private enterprise free-for-all that 42 was describing. However, even in this controlled wages environment, statistically women end up with lower overall lifetime wages and superannuation savings, partly because of taking time off for childbirth and child care, and partly because they are perhaps less pushy in going for promotions to deputy etc. There is some evidence of the beginning of a culture change, where some husbands are prepared to take a few years off after the birth of a child while the wife returns to work.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
Re: The gender gap
That kind of thing, if true, would mean that women would earn less, based on their choices.
While I would rather work with women (if what you say holds true), I would expect them to be paid less due to this kind of choice.
Such a shame a free market takes advantage of good will.
Did you ever think that, being honest means you will pay more taxes than someone who is less honest?
While I would rather work with women (if what you say holds true), I would expect them to be paid less due to this kind of choice.
Such a shame a free market takes advantage of good will.
Did you ever think that, being honest means you will pay more taxes than someone who is less honest?
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Update: I've been offered one!
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Re: The gender gap
I agree.Brian Peacock wrote:Now i know this is going to be a woefully broad generalisation, but in my experience female colleagues always seem more explicitly interested in doing a good job than the men, and the men always seem more interested in securing others' respect than doing a good job.JimC wrote:The education industry I worked in generally has fixed salaries for any given position or number of years of experience, unaffected by gender, so it's not the kind of private enterprise free-for-all that 42 was describing. However, even in this controlled wages environment, statistically women end up with lower overall lifetime wages and superannuation savings, partly because of taking time off for childbirth and child care, and partly because they are perhaps less pushy in going for promotions to deputy etc. There is some evidence of the beginning of a culture change, where some husbands are prepared to take a few years off after the birth of a child while the wife returns to work.
Cunt consistently ignores - deliberately or otherwise the dynamics of control. power and social positioning of males and females. The decks have historically been loaded against women and now they are trying to do something about it. The 'meritocracy' you seem to be so keen on assumes that everyone is in the same starting position with the same chances available to them and the same available path. It simply isn't the case.
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Re: The gender gap
Way to miss the point...Cunt wrote:All of whom are chosen by voters. Not women, not men, but VOTERS.JimC wrote:I'm sure that your system is similar to ours, in that political parties have to put up candidates in the seats to be contested. In most cases here, fewer female candidates are put forward on average, and guess what - party leaderships consist mainly of older white males!Cunt wrote:The education industry is heavily pink-collar, so any imbalances there can be blamed squarely on the folks voting in unions, employee associations or such.
The voters are in charge, have been awhile.
Funny thing - a female politician just started bleating about having more women in politics here. What a fucking idiot. The politicians get chosen by voters, not affirmative action.
Women who exercise their right to vote, get to say who is in government. Men do too. Guess who has been earning more votes lately? From both sides, I mean.
If the candidates put up for election are, let's say, 70% male, then with no voter preference either way, you are going to have a mostly male set of representatives elected...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
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Re: The gender gap
Cunt can answer specifics, as if he were here to do it himself.Rum wrote:
Cunt consistently ignores - deliberately or otherwise the dynamics of control. power and social positioning of males and females. The decks have historically been loaded against women and now they are trying to do something about it. The 'meritocracy' you seem to be so keen on assumes that everyone is in the same starting position with the same chances available to them and the same available path. It simply isn't the case.
I don't ignore the dynamics of control, but as to how 'stacked' the decks have been, they have been stacked against everyone, pretty much. Everyone is set up to train, encourage and mentor within their own gender. The relationships aren't easy to manage across the sex divide (even when people want to)
Both resist crossing the aisle mostly. If you are expecting equal representation by men and women, you aren't acknowledging that, at the elite levels, we should be looking for ability over sex ratios and optics.
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The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.
Update: I've been offered one!
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