Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:43 am

Hermit wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Indeed. In my page-1 post I raised a similar point...
Brian Peacock wrote:...Market economics certainly generates fiscal resources - when those resources are shared around the livings standards of all are raised, and societies become more stable, peaceful and ordered, better educated, more productive and innovative, healthier, infant mortality falls and population growth levels off as a consequence. Given that capitalism is the dominant economic system I guess the questions is, how many dyed-in-the-wool ideological capitalists are interested in raising the living standards of society as a whole - as opposed to simply securing assets for their exclusive use - and what structural influence can we bring to bear in order to ensure that the system works for all those who have little or no choice about taking part in it?
Yes. With the possible exception of rEvolutionist who seems to argue that the welfare state is not capitalism,
Of course it's not capitalism. It's a socialistic aspect of the mixed economy that all western countries run.
we all made that point at some stage or another. Apart from that possible exception nobody has argued that capitalism is not the best solution for poverty.
What possible exception? I haven't argued whether capitalism is or isn't the best system. Right from my first serious post in this thread I attempted to introduce the nuance that 42 has yet to grasp, that of the concept of a mixed economy. It makes no sense to claim socialised health, education, housing, unemployment benefits etc, paid through redistribution of wealth, as "capitalism". This false dichotomy, and a ridiculously lop-sided one, that says that everything bar almost total non-private ownership of the means of production is capitalism, is ridiculous. We have laissez-faire capitalism on one end, socialism on the other end, and in between is varying mixes of the two. And you find that the poor are supported less by the welfare state in those economies/societies that operate closer to laissez-faire. If capitalism is the solution to poverty, why was the laissez-faire of the late 1800's such a fucking terrible time for those other than the robber-barons? And despite 42's misuse of the OECD BLI, it's perfectly obvious to those of us in stronger welfare states that you would be way better off poor here than there. 42 might claim that due to the great wealth that capitalism has generated in the US that the rich can afford to provide the high levels of charity that they do, and that the poor are looked after by this mechanism. The only problem with this is that charity drops off in tough economic times, which are the times that poor people need support the most. In our welfare states, they get the same amount of help regardless of the state of the economy.

And that's not to mention again something that I always raise in these threads, and that virtually no one other than Psychoserenity and Animavore understands, is that the alleged prosperity of the US (and our own countries) is false. It's built on MASSIVE levels of debt, both financial and environmental. What's so fucking hard to understand about this point? And this isn't just addressed to 42? Why is it the rest of you never seem to mention this point, a point which is the most obvious counter to our 'capitalistic' prosperity, and the most obvious counter to any continued prosperity long term?? There's literally no other argument, nuanced or not, that needs to be made. This sinks the idea that the West is a prosperous place. We've stolen wealth via historical colonialism, continue to steal it via economic colonialism, and the rest is borrowed from banks and the natural capital that provides all the natural services (like clean air, water, pollination, fertiliser, food chains, medicine etc) that we rely on for our existence on the planet.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:48 am

I know why you don't mention it, and it's the same reason that the middle-class left make all the right sounds, yet vote for neoliberals like Labor, Labour and Democrats. System justification. I've posted about it before, but it's probably too uncomfortable for most of you to accept. And you can suck my hairy balls before I'll explain it all to you again. :lay:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:55 am

Hermit wrote:
JimC wrote:I would argue (being technical) that the welfare state is not capitalism per se, but that it is a political system that typically co-exists with a capitalist economic system, regulating it to a greater or lesser degree. The co-existence is not without considerable tension, of course.
The welfare state is often labelled a "mixed economy". To an extent it is a fairly applied label,
Exactly, and no more needs to be said (hence why I cut the rest of your post). It's a mix of socialistic and capitalistic approaches. In no fucking universe can redistributive taxation to pay for socialised welfare etc be consider capitalism. It's got nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism is the operation of free markets, private ownership of the means of production, and strong private property rights. There is nothing in that that justifies taking the property/capital of one person that was earned by their free association with the labour and/or financial markets and giving it to another, just because they haven't been as successful as the first. It's nonsensical.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:26 am

pErvinalia wrote:There is nothing in that that justifies taking the property/capital of one person that was earned by their free association with the labour and/or financial markets and giving it to another, just because they haven't been as successful as the first.
Check the US income tax brackets. You'll see rates ranging from 10% for low income earners to 39.6% for those at the top. By your definition the US is not run on capitalism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:54 am

No, it's run on a mixed system. For about the 4th time.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:21 am

pErvinalia wrote:No, it's run on a mixed system. For about the 4th time.
Your most convincing argument yet. Certainly better than the about three previous attempts. :clap:

OK, seriously now: I did mention mixed economies and then went on to say that looking at commonly used examples, chiefly one or more of the Scandinavian countries, I find they are chiefly capitalist with an overlay of government regulations. In the end almost no manufacturing capacity is government owned and run. Most of the gross domestic products come from privately owned (either outright or via share holdings) companies and production is ultimately motivated by generating a profit for their owners. That makes those countries social democracies rather than socialist.

They do have progressive tax scales. So do the United States of America. Some economies are more mixed than others, but as long as the means of production are largely in private hands and run on a for-profit basis, they are fundamentally capitalist economies.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:34 am

Sure, but the welfare state is a socialist concept, not a capitalist concept. That's the point of it being a mixed system. Not everything in it is socialism, and not everything in it is capitalism.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by JimC » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:28 am

Hermit wrote:
JimC wrote:I would argue (being technical) that the welfare state is not capitalism per se, but that it is a political system that typically co-exists with a capitalist economic system, regulating it to a greater or lesser degree. The co-existence is not without considerable tension, of course.
The welfare state is often labelled a "mixed economy". To an extent it is a fairly applied label, but looking at commonly used examples, chiefly one or more of the Scandinavian countries, I find they are chiefly capitalist with an overlay of government regulations. In the end almost no manufacturing capacity is government owned and run. Most of the gross domestic products come from privately owned (either outright or via share holdings) companies and production is ultimately motivated by generating a profit for their owners. That makes those countries social democracies rather than socialist, and they are certainly not socialist systems of the communist variety.
Agreed.

The whole thing is not a matter of absolutes, but a series of continua on sliding scales:

* personal freedom vs socially desirable limitations

* rights of capital vs rights of labour

and many others.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:15 am

pErvinalia wrote:Sure, but the welfare state is a socialist concept, not a capitalist concept.
The term "welfare state" (Wohlfahrtsstaat) was introduced by Otto von Bismarck in 1870, who went on to turn Germany into one in the 1880s, when he implemented the first national old age pension scheme in Europe, brought in workers compensation, employment security and sickness benefits legislation, tightened regulations on child labour and so on. The measures were funded by taxes, most of which were levied on employers. Bismarck was no socialist.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:54 am

Jesus man, he was for a mixed economy. How many more times does the concept of a mixed economy need to be explained to you?
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:40 am

pErvinalia wrote:Jesus man, he was for a mixed economy. How many more times does the concept of a mixed economy need to be explained to you?
No need to explain the concept to me. I already know. Mixed economies - going by the usually cited examples - are economies where most of the means of production are privately owned, operated for profit and leavened by regulations that keep the plebs from getting unruly. Quite a clever way to perpetuate capitalism, though I think capitalism will eventually collapse due to its own fundamental contradiction, but that is an issue we could discuss in another thread.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:37 am

Capitalism, whatever it is, is founded on property, and we all like to own stuff and say that it's ours. As long as that continues there will be capitalism. What ideological capitalist object to are limits being placed on what they can own, which is why they get so annoyed at the idea that we can all own something together.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:00 pm

We have a very mixed economy. Our government in principle does not own any utility. Even health is not government run. But does have very strict inspection regimes in almost all sectors of society which all companies must adhere to. We dont have exceptionally strong trade unions but worker representation is guaranteed in workers councils.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by mistermack » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:18 pm

If you earn more than $18,000 dollars, you are one of the 4% highest earners in the world.

Not a lot of people know that !
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:34 pm

Because it's irrelevant. Poverty is relative to cost of living.
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