Hillsborough. The amazing bending of the truth.

[JacksSmirkingRevenge]

If they'd behaved like real Scousers they'd have stolen the gates in the first place.

Oi!!
I might have to nick this thread out of spite, now.

[mistermack]

I find your posts to be a sad indictment of humanity. You peddle long-debunked myths on a par with Holocaust denial, including this one about "late, ticketless fans", which even a cursory Google would demonstrate to be a pernicious blood libel.

And on today of all days, demonstrating that you are as sensitive as you are intelligent.

What do you do for an encore - rape a baby?

I find your posts be be lacking any fact based argument.
Perhaps you can answer a simple question. Who supplied the force, that killed the victims?

[Strontium Dog]

I find your posts be be lacking any fact based argument.

Yes, that's no surprise, you've shown yourself to be about as well acquainted with the facts as the average creationist.

Perhaps you can answer a simple question. Who supplied the force, that killed the victims?

It's immaterial who supplied "the force" that killed the victims. What a pathetic line of argument that is. On a par with blaming gun crime on the guy who mined the metal that made the gun.

Judging by your fact-free diatribes of long-debunked libels, it's quite clear you're just trying to get a rise out of anyone affected by this disaster. It's behaviour of the absolute lowest of the low. Your parents must be so proud.

[mistermack]

It's immaterial who supplied "the force" that killed the victims.

That says it all. Black is white. Up is down. Come out with any crap you like. If you say it, it must be true. Because you said it.

People are crushed to death, and it's immaterial who crushed them. Only in Liverpool !!!

The only reason I posted this is because I despise the hypocrisy that you hear about this.
It's everybody's fault, except the people who actually killed those victims.

If they think '' the victims deserve the truth '', then it should be the actual truth, not the bullshit that we've been fed since it happened.

[Strontium Dog]

It's immaterial who supplied "the force" that killed the victims.

That says it all. Black is white. Up is down. Come out with any crap you like. If you say it, it must be true. Because you said it.

People are crushed to death, and it's immaterial who crushed them. Only in Liverpool !!!

The only reason I posted this is because I despise the hypocrisy that you hear about this.
It's everybody's fault, except the people who actually killed those victims.

If they think '' the victims deserve the truth '', then it should be the actual truth, not the bullshit that we've been fed since it happened.

You're the only one coming out with crap. Nasty, hateful, demonstrably untrue crap at that.

The people responsible for killing anyone are those who demonstrated criminally negligent behaviour, not that I'd expect you to understand that.

I suppose it's also the fans' fault that police doctored witness statements. I suppose it's the fans' fault that police lied about fans forcing the gate open. I suppose it's the fans' fault that police told lies about the fans stealing from the dead.

Still, let's humour your hate speech one last time.

Since numerous reports have completely exonerated the fans from any blame, debunking every single lie you have told here in the process, perhaps you'd like to supply the evidence that the official explanations are wrong.

Since you appear not to know what evidence is, here's something that may help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

Have fun trying to debunk reality.

[DaveDodo007]

It's immaterial who supplied "the force" that killed the victims.

That says it all. Black is white. Up is down. Come out with any crap you like. If you say it, it must be true. Because you said it.

People are crushed to death, and it's immaterial who crushed them. Only in Liverpool !!!

The only reason I posted this is because I despise the hypocrisy that you hear about this.
It's everybody's fault, except the people who actually killed those victims.

If they think '' the victims deserve the truth '', then it should be the actual truth, not the bullshit that we've been fed since it happened.

You're the only one coming out with crap. Nasty, hateful, demonstrably untrue crap at that.

The people responsible for killing anyone are those who demonstrated criminally negligent behaviour, not that I'd expect you to understand that.

I suppose it's also the fans' fault that police doctored witness statements. I suppose it's the fans' fault that police lied about fans forcing the gate open. I suppose it's the fans' fault that police told lies about the fans stealing from the dead.

Still, let's humour your hate speech one last time.

Since numerous reports have completely exonerated the fans from any blame, debunking every single lie you have told here in the process, perhaps you'd like to supply the evidence that the official explanations are wrong.

Since you appear not to know what evidence is, here's something that may help:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence

Have fun trying to debunk reality.

Thanks for posting this.

[mistermack]

Well, Strontium, there are glaring faults in your argument.
Firstly, I don't get my opinions from wikipedia, even if they offer one.
I'm happy to go there for facts, but I form my own opinions.

Secondly, the conclusions of the two inquiries are not evidence of anything either.
The whole point of what I'm saying, is that they were both whitewashes, designed to absolve the Liverpool fans of any blame.
For some reason, the ''powers that be'' have decided that it's best not to stain a city with the collective blame.

That's not to say that mistakes weren't made by the police, or that they didn't cover up inconvenient facts after the event. But none of that changes what caused the deaths, and that was the behaviour of the Liverpool fans.

The disaster started outside, with the fans crushing so hard, at the turnstiles, that the policman in charge ordered the gate to be opened.
He made a mistake, but at the time, without the gift of hindsight, he judged that it would save lives.

But he was put in that position by the behaviour of the late arriving fans. If they had behaved like decent human beings, instead of mindless animals, he wouldn't have been forced into that fatal error. And no, that wasn't ''criminal negligence''. It was a mistake anybody could have made, given the alarming circumstances that he was faced with.

Why? Because it was PEOPLE he let in. If it was a herd of cattle that he let in, then that WOULD be criminally negligent. They don't know any better. But he had a right to expect PEOPLE to behave decently.

If you open a door for a crowd, you don't immediately think that they are going to rush in and crush people to death. It doesn't happen every day.
The Liverpool fans didn't have to push those in front of them. I've been in lots of crowds, and I've never known it happen.

In the end, anybody has the right to expect people to behave like people, not like dumb animals. Otherwise, crowds would have to be banned. Simple as that.

Actually, it probably wouldn't happen today. Football fans do behave better, and that includes Liverpool fans. Twenty five years ago, football fans behaved a lot worse, and Liverpool fans were among the worst. That's how 39 people in the Heysel Stadium lost their lives, and 600 were injured, just three years before this Hillsborough disaster.
Also caused by the behaviour of Liverpool fans. It's a shame that they had to kill their own fans, before they learned how to behave.

[MrJonno]

I don't know what the truth of what happened is, that's what the enquiry is for but I suspect what the relatives really want isn't the 'truth' but people going to jail. Any 'truth' that doesn't result in that won't be the 'truth'.

All the enquiries into disasters not just Hillsborough are the same, you can't satisfy relatives without 'blood' , that's sadly human nature the desire to make other people hurt as much as you do

[Strontium Dog]

Well, Strontium, there are glaring faults in your argument.
Firstly, I don't get my opinions from wikipedia, even if they offer one.
I'm happy to go there for facts, but I form my own opinions.

Secondly, the conclusions of the two inquiries are not evidence of anything either.
The whole point of what I'm saying, is that they were both whitewashes, designed to absolve the Liverpool fans of any blame.
For some reason, the ''powers that be'' have decided that it's best not to stain a city with the collective blame.

That's not to say that mistakes weren't made by the police, or that they didn't cover up inconvenient facts after the event. But none of that changes what caused the deaths, and that was the behaviour of the Liverpool fans.

The disaster started outside, with the fans crushing so hard, at the turnstiles, that the policman in charge ordered the gate to be opened.
He made a mistake, but at the time, without the gift of hindsight, he judged that it would save lives.

But he was put in that position by the behaviour of the late arriving fans. If they had behaved like decent human beings, instead of mindless animals, he wouldn't have been forced into that fatal error. And no, that wasn't ''criminal negligence''. It was a mistake anybody could have made, given the alarming circumstances that he was faced with.

Why? Because it was PEOPLE he let in. If it was a herd of cattle that he let in, then that WOULD be criminally negligent. They don't know any better. But he had a right to expect PEOPLE to behave decently.

If you open a door for a crowd, you don't immediately think that they are going to rush in and crush people to death. It doesn't happen every day.
The Liverpool fans didn't have to push those in front of them. I've been in lots of crowds, and I've never known it happen.

In the end, anybody has the right to expect people to behave like people, not like dumb animals. Otherwise, crowds would have to be banned. Simple as that.

Actually, it probably wouldn't happen today. Football fans do behave better, and that includes Liverpool fans. Twenty five years ago, football fans behaved a lot worse, and Liverpool fans were among the worst. That's how 39 people in the Heysel Stadium lost their lives, and 600 were injured, just three years before this Hillsborough disaster.
Also caused by the behaviour of Liverpool fans. It's a shame that they had to kill their own fans, before they learned how to behave.

So this is your way of admitting you've got no evidence to support your blood libels.

You're an appalling individual.

[pErvinalia]

Nobody said that they were. That's the ridiculous level of argument on this.

The victims arrived in good time, and didn't crush anybody. I've never seen anybody claim that the victims were to blame.

It was the latecomers, who pushed and shoved, but they weren't victims, they were the idiots who caused the deaths.

I find your posts to be a sad indictment of humanity. You peddle long-debunked myths on a par with Holocaust denial, including this one about "late, ticketless fans", which even a cursory Google would demonstrate to be a pernicious blood libel.

And on today of all days, demonstrating that you are as sensitive as you are intelligent.

What do you do for an encore - rape a baby?

Fuck me, SD. You easily have the greatest knack for hyperbole on the internet!

[mistermack]

So this is your way of admitting you've got no evidence to support your blood libels.

You're an appalling individual.

Evidence?
The evidence has been heard over and over again. It's not disputed.
The victims died of crushing injuries. Nobody has ever suggested that anybody, other than Liverpool fans, did the crushing.
What the fuck are you talking about? It's indisputable, but nobody will say it.

If you can't bring yourself to say who crushed the victims, you don't deserve to debate anything.

By all means argue your case about how things happened. But don't pretend it NEVER happened.
You're just being ridiculous. You talk about evidence then you deny the bleedin obvious.

[FBM]

Some comments here are bordering on reportable. Please be careful not to attack another member, as that would force staff out of their comfortable inactivity. Thank you.

[hackenslash]

Get ready for a rare statement:

Strontium Dog is correct and mistermack is talking shit. The police were entirely responsible for this. mm's case rests on the behaviour of the crowd, but I suggest he has no idea of how crowds naturally work, not least when they're forced (and yes, I do mean forced) into a confined space via choke points.

The Liverpool fans were not to blame for this, it was the ineptitude of the police, hence their need to actively cover it up.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Get ready for a rare statement:

Strontium Dog is correct and mistermack is talking shit.

In all honesty, only the first part of that statement is a rarity.

[hackenslash]

True dat.