Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by macdoc » Sun Dec 01, 2013 4:14 pm

I always thought libbies were in favour of people taking the consequences of their actions.

He's a teacher..he knows in entering that profession he is under a set of legal rules more stringent than others due to his duty of care for young people.

He breached them. End of discussion as far as any absolution due to "romance". 47 to 14 is just not on for a teacher - it's predatory even tho understandable as some 14 year olds are totally luscious and totally open about showing off their juicy new bods to appreciative eyes. They should be able to flirt without risk as they are in try out mode for adult relationships and often have self esteem issues about their bodies that makes them particularly vulnerable.
I think it's a difficult time as they crave affection but often at that age do not want parental affection any more and some parents are uncomfortable too ..dad cuddling pubescent girl is a eyebrow lifter even tho the girl may just need some affection and reassurance. So she or he seeks it elsewhere and sometimes with risk ....that's where society can provide some protection against predators.....even those with without predatory intentions who simply "fall" for a young person. I notice there have been a few female teachers recently prosecuted for breach of care in getting into a relationship with a young boy.

Age of consent is diffult as kids fuck around earlier and earlier which is why I support gap laws that seek to prevent more sexually mature individuals preying on the immature.

The headache is a 16 year old can prey on a 13 year old but the 16 year old should not be held to the standard nor endure the penalty a 25 year old or especially a person in position of trust should risk. But there is a huge divide maturity and physically between 16 and 13.

In my view the age of consent should be 16 with sexual activities between those younger subject to mandatory counseling unless violence is used and then assault laws come into play.

Between 16 and 18 I think a gap law should still exist as studies have shown it takes til early twenties for people to mature in their judgement. ( the insurance companies understand this only too well )

So something like a 5 year or 7 year gap law would keep the 16 and 17 year olds from the worst of the predation and make it easier for police to prosecute in quasi-prostitution cases.
This would also curb the nastiness some of the Mormon sects dish out on their young girls.

Girls mature faster than boys and at 19 girls are both fully sexually mature and desirable :naughty: while boys are still growing up in the judgement realm which is why some curbs on wooing the newly blossomed adults in the 17-18 category is a good hedge.

I think kids under 15 should be both free to play sexually but also be provided with education and birth control availability without moral condemnation.

16 - 18 is apprentice adult in society's eyes....some privileges not all and some remaining protections from much older sexual partners.

19 plus....fully participating member of society with the rights and responsibilities.

Oddly insurance is driving this sort of gradation in terms of both driving and in particular motorcycle use with graduated controls covering both age and time and type of vehicle.

But some libbies need to accept that society and individuals are in an every changing partnership with a body of law created over time and by the efforts of individuals and institutions covering the engagement between individual and the state.

In my view sexual transactions under 18 should not be dealt with by the criminal system and neither should familial matters like divorce etc be dealt with by the adversial legal system.

Community justice, mediation and counselling bodies should be the norm to deal with these matters. not the exception as it is now and mediation should be mandatory in family matters. Slightly off topic but not entirely as I think sexual digressions for those under 18 should be dealt with in the same system.

Corporations have a body of corporate law ( as flawed as that might be ) to protect things like minority shareholders rights etc.

Family law should have a similar system to protect minors without resorting to the brutal adversarial crap dished out by the legal vultures.

This guy will pay a societal penalty very high .....without burdening the state with useless incarceration...

He also bears the weighty guilt of his sex partner's suicide which his action's surely contributed to.

I thnk that Cairn's situation laid out the issues and I think the judge made a decent ruling on a very difficult and complex case.

This shows the gradation I think is needed both in the body of law and in the treatment of different ages..
One of the adult rapists, Raymond Frederick Woolla, 26, is on the Australian National Child Offence Register following a conviction on March 29 last year for unlawful carnal knowledge of a female child - an offence committed after he was charged with the rape of the 10-year-old girl.
Judge Bradley said Woolla was the oldest and should have known a lot better.
"You cannot have sex with anyone under 16," she said.

"However, as I said before, I am not treating anyone any differently in terms of being a ringleader, and in your case, again, I will impose a sentence of imprisonment but it will be wholly suspended so you do not go to jail today.

"But if you get into more trouble in the next year, you could end up in jail." Woolla had been arrested on August 7, 2006, and the judge said the 14 days he spent in custody awaiting his sentence was to count as "imprisonment already served".
over twenty five - he is now on a knife edge for serious jail
When sentencing the juveniles, Justice Bradley said: "All of you have pleaded guilty to having sex with a 10-year-old girl and (one of the juveniles) has pleaded guilty to having sex with another young girl as well.

"All of you have to understand that you cannot have sex with a girl under 16.

"If you do, you are breaking the law, and if you are found out, then you will be brought to court and could end up in jail.

"I accept that the girl involved, with respect to all of these matters, was not forced, and that she probably agreed to have sex with all of you.

"But you were taking advantage of a 10-year-old girl and she needs to be protected, and the girls generally in this community need to be protected.

"This is a very serious matter.

"It is a very shameful matter and I hope that all of you realise that you must not have sex with young girls.

"Anyone under 16 is too young.

"Some of you are still children yourselves.


"Others of you are adults but I am treating you all equally in terms of the behaviour.

"I am not treating any of you as the ringleader or anything likethat."

She asked each prisoner to stand up and said she hoped they would realise it was wrong to have sex with young girls.

Justice Bradley then offered them probation and when each agreed to accept that, she said she would not record a conviction.

To one of the juveniles, she said: "You are still a child. You have pleaded guilty to one offence of rape.

"You have been in a lot of trouble in the past, though, and you still have some community service to do.

"You have not been doing that well. I am prepared to offer you probation but you have got to stick with the rules of probation."

The juvenile agreed and was then placed on 12 months' probation, with no conviction recorded.
The only thing that is missing here is a community justice ruling as opposed to the full legal system but the judge did a good job in my view of filling that role and hopefully the community involved will see to it her intentions are carried through to curb the predation on young girls.
10 tho.....

....urk......good case for touring sex workers.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by mistermack » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:28 pm

It's rape. A hundred percent.
That's the law. Teachers know the law. If they break it, they have to take the consequences that they knew were there.

By all means argue for a change in the law. But in the meantime, you follow the spirit of the law, as it stands. Or take the consequences. And judges should apply the law as it stands, not as the law that they would like it changed to. Judges are there to apply the existing law, in letter and spirit. If they think it's bad, they should quit, and become a politician.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:36 pm

Actually, it's not, it's rape only because the law says so, not because the guy forcedhimself on the girl (unless he did, but from what I read she was quite willing)... there's plenty to say about the justification of age of consent or whether authority figures can be permitted to profit from the love and admiration they may create among their charges, but don't come to me ssaying that something is so when the only thing that makes it is artificial definition by the powers that be... that's giving in to the newspeak, not calling a spade a spade.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by JimC » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:50 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:There is a reasonable argument that penalties in situations like this should be higher for teachers and other people in positions of authority, since they are likely to exert forms of domination and control due to their position. Even if this was not the case in a particular situation, the harsh penalties should still apply "pour encourage les autres"...
But shouldn't the state have to prove that such domination and control was actually used in order for a defendant to be guilty of the crime?
I am open to the defence arguing for a reduction in a sentence if they can show very clearly that the young person involved actively sought the relationship. However, when adults are in a position of authority, the whole dynamic is different in comparison to a stranger, and it is reasonable to have a presumption that emotional manipulation by the adult has occurred.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:39 pm

FBM wrote:I vaguely recall something on the BBC website a week or two ago in which a prominent female lady person in teh gummit suggested that the age of consent be lowered there to 14, and that statutory rape without violence should be treated differently from violent rape of an underage child. I sort of remember that she made some good points, though I could not commit to her conclusion. As for me, I think we should look to science for an answer, not politics or any anachronistic source of morality.
I agree. And science tells us that a girl is ready for sex when she reaches menarche, and a boy is ready for sex when he can ejaculate live semen.

I'm fully in favor of statutes that make coercion of sex of any sort, either physical or mental, a crime, but it should apply to everyone who is physically sexually mature. And mostly the law already does so. The important distinction however is consent and both consent and the finding of coercion are matters of evidence for the triers of fact to determine. Thus, if a sexually-mature 14 year old wants to have sex with a teacher and there is no physical or mental coercion, there is no crime. On the other hand, for the teacher to say, or even imply that the girl's grades or anything else are conditioned on her submitting to sex, that IS a crime. But it's not a "statutory" determination, it's a finding of fact in each and every case.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:48 pm

mistermack wrote:It's rape. A hundred percent.
That's the law. Teachers know the law. If they break it, they have to take the consequences that they knew were there.

By all means argue for a change in the law. But in the meantime, you follow the spirit of the law, as it stands. Or take the consequences. And judges should apply the law as it stands, not as the law that they would like it changed to. Judges are there to apply the existing law, in letter and spirit. If they think it's bad, they should quit, and become a politician.
It's not "rape" except for the fact that it's defined that way in the law. Factually and rationally it's "coercive sex by a person in a position of trust" and it's based on the notion that children are vulnerable to the influence of adults because they are taught to be obedient to adults. But if the child is NOT influenced by some coercive act on the part of the adult, it's not "rape." It may be a statutory offense that falls under the broad term involved, but it's a perversion of the word to call a fully consensual act "rape." For one thing it demeans and devalues the term "rape" itself by applying it in circumstances that don't fit the actual definition, which makes it less useful in its intended usage, which is to denote forcible involuntary sexual contact.

Call it something else if you like, and yes it's against the law for a teacher to have sex with a student...in some cases a student who is over the age of 21...and teachers know or should know this and are responsible if they violate the law. But it isn't always "rape," which is a deliberately loaded term used to vilify the defendant and absolve the "victim," for reasons of social and political policy which may be entirely untrue in individual cases.

And you're wrong. Judges are there to see that justice is administered, which is why they have sentencing discretion in the first place. The judge did not vacate the verdict and declare him not guilty (which would have completely precluded another trial), he merely exercised his judicial discretion to suspend part of the sentence.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by JimC » Sun Dec 01, 2013 9:56 pm

Seth wrote:

...Thus, if a sexually-mature 14 year old wants to have sex with a teacher and there is no physical or mental coercion, there is no crime....
I would certainly have to disagree there. Perhaps semantically, it should not be called rape, and certainly any penalty should be less than in cases where physical or mental coercion has applied. However, there is no way that a 14 year old can give "informed consent" in such a situation, and, at the very least, the teacher is taking advantage of an immature, infatuated adolescent for their own sexual gratification. Sexually mature does not equate to emotionally mature...

It is a clear example of abuse of authority, and should guarantee immediate loss of their job. Whether the penalty under law should include a modest jail term is up for argument, but a conviction should certainly apply.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:01 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...Thus, if a sexually-mature 14 year old wants to have sex with a teacher and there is no physical or mental coercion, there is no crime....
I would certainly have to disagree there. Perhaps semantically, it should not be called rape, and certainly any penalty should be less than in cases where physical or mental coercion has applied. However, there is no way that a 14 year old can give "informed consent" in such a situation, and, at the very least, the teacher is taking advantage of an immature, infatuated adolescent for their own sexual gratification. Sexually mature does not equate to emotionally mature...

It is a clear example of abuse of authority, and should guarantee immediate loss of their job. Whether the penalty under law should include a modest jail term is up for argument, but a conviction should certainly apply.
I disagree with you that "there is no way that a 14 year old can give "informed consent" in such a situation." There is no evidence that 14 year-olds as a class of persons are either physically or mentally incapable of making such decisions for themselves. Keep in mind that it's NOT a crime for a 14 year-old to give "informed consent" to another 14 year-old...or in most cases a 15, 16, 17 or 18 year-old...so why can they not give informed consent to a teacher or other older adult? They can. Whether they actually DO or not is case-dependent. If the purported victim doesn't complain then why should society intervene, particularly if the purported victim doesn't want to be "protected" by society, as in the case of Mary Kay Letourneau?

And if we're talking about "emotionally mature" then it should be illegal for two people under the age of about 25 to have sex because science tells us that the human brain is not fully mature until then.

I'm not arguing that it should be legal for a person in a position of trust to abuse that authority to coerce sex from a minor, I'm just saying that the gravity of the offense should be decided on a case-by-case basis and that in order to convict someone of "sexual abuse of authority by a person in a position of trust" there has to at least be an evidenciary finding by a jury or judge that such abuse of authority actually occurred and that the contact with the victim was factually unwanted.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by FBM » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:39 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_o ... Global.svg

I think one thing that people tend to overlook is that there is no one-age-fits-all when it comes to ability to give informed consent.
So much depends on individual variation and culture. Here in Korea, the age of consent is 13, but I seriously doubt many 13-y.o.'s are well informed enough about sex to engage in it safely. There is no sex education in schools at any grade (unless it has started recently) and the topic is taboo in this Confucian society. I think any sexual contact between an adult and a child (however you define it) should be reported and investigated on its own merit. And it should be doctors who decide, not lawyers or judges. Science. It works, bitches! ;)
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by macdoc » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:53 am

I'd slide that to consenting contact.
Assault is assault.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by Seth » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:54 am

FBM wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_o ... Global.svg

I think one thing that people tend to overlook is that there is no one-age-fits-all when it comes to ability to give informed consent.
So much depends on individual variation and culture. Here in Korea, the age of consent is 13, but I seriously doubt many 13-y.o.'s are well informed enough about sex to engage in it safely. There is no sex education in schools at any grade (unless it has started recently) and the topic is taboo in this Confucian society. I think any sexual contact between an adult and a child (however you define it) should be reported and investigated on its own merit. And it should be doctors who decide, not lawyers or judges. Science. It works, bitches! ;)
Well, I'd say that science should weigh heavily, but judges and juries still have to rule in the end. Psychology is not an exact science.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by FBM » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:03 am

macdoc wrote:I'd slide that to consenting contact.
Assault is assault.
Good point. Yeah, that's what I meant.
Seth wrote:Well, I'd say that science should weigh heavily, but judges and juries still have to rule in the end. Psychology is not an exact science.
That's the way the system is set up anyway, I think. Doctors and other specialists run their tests and testify about their conclusions, then the judge and/or jury decides. I just don't think guilt should be automatic. For example, if one of the people involved is 18 and the other 17. I think cases like that have been prosecuted before. But regardless of the age difference, doctors should be able to provide input based on evidence and reason, rather than popular opinion.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by macdoc » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:30 am

Judges and juries do not necessarily have to weigh in at all in cases without assault and where the parties are 18 or under.
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by MrJonno » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:57 pm

The problem is the treating of sex before the age of consent equally.

If the age of consent is 16 then sure its illegal to have sex with someone who is 14 or 4 but I would hope the punishment would be very different.

In the UK having sex with someone who is 15 is not rape assuming there was consent its a less serious crime of having sex with a child which still can be a serious crime but at the lowest end of punishment there may not even be a jail sentence (if its 2 15's years there won't even be a prosecution just a warning)

Under 13 its automatically rape and the punishment scale is far higher.

The laws are quite sensible and police/courts have massive discretion when it comes to prosecuting with public interest always considered.


I wish our murder laws were more sensible with both stalking torturing and butchering a stranger carrying the same life sentence as someone smothering there partner who has been in coma for 10 years. There was an attempt to change the law a while back but the public got upset about murder not necessarily carrying a life sentence
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Re: Is it "rape" or a May/December romance?

Post by Warren Dew » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:29 pm

Seth wrote:Keep in mind that it's NOT a crime for a 14 year-old to give "informed consent" to another 14 year-old...or in most cases a 15, 16, 17 or 18 year-old...so why can they not give informed consent to a teacher or other older adult?
I believe in most jurisdictions it actually is a crime; it's just not often prosecuted. Maybe that should change.

In this particular case, I think there are other issues that also come into play. In particular, teachers are in a position of authority over students and that authority is easy to abuse. I think it's reasonable to say that teachers should not have sex with students put in their charge, especially if the students are minors, even if it were considered okay for random other adults.

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