Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congress...

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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:54 pm

maiforpeace wrote: The hypocrisy I'm claiming isn't the "tit for tat" you are claiming...it's the fact that out of some Republican mouths they are essentially daring Obama to go to war in Syria, otherwise he's a ninny, while at the same time proposing this act. Big difference.

I don't recall any Democrats daring Bush to go to war in Iraq, but do correct me if I'm wrong.
The question here is, would it be lawful to go to war in Syria without Congressional approval? What do any dares have to do with the answer to that question?

And, who is "daring" Obama to go to war in Syria?

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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:55 pm

Ian wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I do find it interesting that it is difficult to find an article about this in the major media outlets.
Perhaps that's because it's a bullshit posturing bill that hasn't even gone through Committee yet, and will never become a law. :roll:
That never stopped the media from reporting in the past.

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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by maiforpeace » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:13 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
maiforpeace wrote: The hypocrisy I'm claiming isn't the "tit for tat" you are claiming...it's the fact that out of some Republican mouths they are essentially daring Obama to go to war in Syria, otherwise he's a ninny, while at the same time proposing this act. Big difference.

I don't recall any Democrats daring Bush to go to war in Iraq, but do correct me if I'm wrong.
The question here is, would it be lawful to go to war in Syria without Congressional approval? What do any dares have to do with the answer to that question?

And, who is "daring" Obama to go to war in Syria?
No, it wouldn't be lawful...why would it be all of a sudden?

I couldn't find the clip of the speech where Mitt basically dares Obama to go to war to Syria (it is on the most recent episode of Bill Maher though) but here's something similar about Iran.

http://m.npr.org/news/World/148185491
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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:19 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
maiforpeace wrote: The hypocrisy I'm claiming isn't the "tit for tat" you are claiming...it's the fact that out of some Republican mouths they are essentially daring Obama to go to war in Syria, otherwise he's a ninny, while at the same time proposing this act. Big difference.

I don't recall any Democrats daring Bush to go to war in Iraq, but do correct me if I'm wrong.
The question here is, would it be lawful to go to war in Syria without Congressional approval? What do any dares have to do with the answer to that question?

And, who is "daring" Obama to go to war in Syria?
No, it wouldn't be lawful...why would it be all of a sudden?
Both Clinton and Obama took offensive military action without consulting Congress, and ignoring the War Powers Act. So, they must have broken the law then.

maiforpeace wrote: I couldn't find the clip of the speech where Mitt basically dares Obama to go to war to Syria (it is on the most recent episode of Bill Maher though) but here's something similar about Iran.

http://m.npr.org/news/World/148185491
That doesn't sound like a dare to go to war. Nobody said that. They called him weak and feckless. Oh, boy. That must mean "go to war."

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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by eXcommunicate » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:51 am

The Wikipedia article is a little hazy, but did Reagan get prior approval from Congress to go into Grenada? H.W. Bush for Panama?
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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:08 pm

Regarding Panama, I believe there was bipartisan support for the action, and the there was a Congressional oversight committee approving various aspects of US action along the way, including covert CIA action, which was all approved and funded by Congress - and I do believe he complied with the War Powers Act.

With respect to Grenada, Reagan notified House Speaker Tip O'Neill (D) of the majority Democrat Congress, and he notified Congress in conformity with the War Powers Act. It fell upon Congress under the War Powers Act to invoke section 4(a)(1) which would have imposed the 60 or 90 day limit on the mission, but they never completed that process and section 4(a)(1) was never actually imposed. Tip O'Neill said that the War Powers Resolution had become operative on October 25. By December 15, 1983, all U.S. combat troops had been removed from Grenada - thus, War Powers Act compliance appears to be at least arguably there. But, I do not believe that Reagan sought specific Congressional approval -- I believe he relied upon the request from the Organization of Eastern Caribbean States which claimed that Cuban forces were on the island, and that people, including Americans, were at serious risk. There were Cuban forces there, and the US troops were very much welcomed - Americans were spirited off of the island. And, it is without doubt that the alleged Cuban construction workers, were military personnel.

Eleven Democrat Members of Congress filed a suit challenging the constitutionality of President Reagan's invasion of Grenada. A district judge held that courts should not decide such cases unless the entire Congress used the institutional remedies available to it. An appellate court subsequently held that the issue was moot because the invasion had been ended.

But, one of the points of raising the question in the OP is this: "The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation," - Barack H. Obama. Seems incongruous...

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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:40 pm

The Thatch was not too happy with the whole Grenada thing...

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/109427
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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Mar 14, 2012 2:06 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:The Thatch was not too happy with the whole Grenada thing...

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/109427
Given the writings about the Iron Lady which I've read throughout this forum, I would imagine that such disaffection on her part would likely be seen as a point in favor of the military action...

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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:41 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:The Thatch was not too happy with the whole Grenada thing...

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/109427
Given the writings about the Iron Lady which I've read throughout this forum, I would imagine that such disaffection on her part would likely be seen as a point in favor of the military action...
That is a valid point of view.
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Re: Presidential Use of Offensive Military Force w/o Congres

Post by Jason » Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Seems clear-cut to me. Yes he does.

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