Guns used for lawful self defense

[Cormac]

But 400% is so much more dramatic!

Do these households that have hand guns also have rifles or just hand guns? Do households that have only hand guns have a significantly higher rate of suicide than those that have only rifles? What is the causation between hand gun ownership and suicide rates? Do hand guns make people more suicidal or would these people be just as suicidal without them? If there were no hand guns in the house, would they attempt other methods (pills, slashing wrists, etc.)? These other methods, being less reliable, would there be more permanently disabled people who attempted suicide and, if so, being that they would become a burden on their families and society in general is this a good thing considering they desperately wanted to terminate their existence anyway? If people are so desperate to commit suicide, who are we to tell them no they can't? Why is the issue of the morality of suicide and the possession of hand guns being compounded?

I'm not expecting answers, and I don't care to hear them from Groper. It's just an example of why I think he's an idiot not worth arguing with.

I'd hazard a guess that pills are a much more reliable way of offing oneself. With a gun, you've a good chance of blowing half your face off, or a useful part of your brain away. Whereas pills, in the right quantity...

Not that I'm an advocate of suicide. I think it is a horrible tragedy in the vast majority of circumstances. Unfortunately, we're seeing an awful lot of suicides these days - and we already had a high background rate to begin with...

[Seabass]

You admit that the right to armed self defense exists, and you allow for the use of rifles and shotguns to do so, but you derogate handguns because you are afraid of them. Unfortunately for you, they are an effective tool of self-defense that each and every individual has a right to secure.

Actually, the reason I accept rifles and do not accept hand guns is purely pragmatic, based on my belief that human life matters.

Hand guns are responsible for half of all homicides in the USA and 60% of all successful suicides. Rifles, shotguns, and military weapons are responsible for a tiny number by comparison. So, in order to save lives, it makes sense to restrict hand guns.

Based on your belief that human life matters, you should be railing against your fellow Kiwis to ban shotguns and rifles.

The intentional homicide rate in New Zealand is 225% higher than that of Japan, and 300% higher than it is in Singapore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

I mean, what kind sick, depraved, morally bankrupt, backward, barbaric, culture allows people to own machines made for killing? Kiwis clearly do not value human life. New Zealand gun culture is disgraceful.

I bet you gun-crazed Kiwis perform sex acts with your guns. You disgust me, pervert.

[Blind groper]

To Pord

In different countries, different methods of suicide tend to get used. For example : in Hong Kong, where people live in high rise apartments, jumping from a high place is the commonest. In the USA, it is only 2% of suicides. In most third world agricultural nations, pesticide poisoning is a favourite, because pesticides are readily available. In prisons, the most common method is hanging, because it can be done with things like bed sheets.

Among ordinary people in the USA, hand guns are the most common method of successful suicide (drugs and cutting oneself are the most common methods in suicide attempts, but are rarely successful). Interestingly, Switzerland has a high hand gun suicide rate too at 25%, since there are a lot of guns in Switzerland. Not as high as the USA, of course, since there are fewer hand guns in Switzerland.

Rifles are less often used, because they are awkward. A hand gun is the ideal suicide weapon. By numbers of weapons, rifles should be more commonly used, since there are more rifles or shotguns than hand guns in the USA. But they are rarely used, and hand guns are the suicide weapon of choice among those who actually succeed.

[Blind groper]

Based on your belief that human life matters, you should be railing against your fellow Kiwis to ban shotguns and rifles.

The intentional homicide rate in New Zealand is 225% higher than that of Japan, and 300% higher than it is in Singapore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

I mean, what kind sick, depraved, morally bankrupt, backward, barbaric, culture allows people to own machines made for killing? Kiwis clearly do not value human life. New Zealand gun culture is disgraceful.

I bet you gun-crazed Kiwis perform sex acts with your guns. You disgust me, pervert.

Get your facts straight, Seabass. Rifles and shotguns are rarely used for suicide in NZ. The most common successful suicide method in my country is hanging. Would-be suicides tend to use what is readily available. In the USA, it is hand guns. In NZ, it is cord. Rifles and shotguns, for some reason, are rarely used in either country.

If you want to insult me or my country, feel free to go ahead. As I said before, it is water off the duck's back. However, I do have a high regard for the truth, and when someone like you cannot be bothered to do a little research, and couches those insults in lies, then I lose all possible respect for that person.

[klr]

Based on your belief that human life matters, you should be railing against your fellow Kiwis to ban shotguns and rifles.

The intentional homicide rate in New Zealand is 225% higher than that of Japan, and 300% higher than it is in Singapore.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

I mean, what kind sick, depraved, morally bankrupt, backward, barbaric, culture allows people to own machines made for killing? Kiwis clearly do not value human life. New Zealand gun culture is disgraceful.

I bet you gun-crazed Kiwis perform sex acts with your guns. You disgust me, pervert.

Get your facts straight, Seabass. Rifles and shotguns are rarely used for suicide in NZ. The most common successful suicide method in my country is hanging. Would-be suicides tend to use what is readily available. In the USA, it is hand guns. In NZ, it is cord. Rifles and shotguns, for some reason, are rarely used in either country.

If you want to insult me or my country, feel free to go ahead. As I said before, it is water off the duck's back. However, I do have a high regard for the truth, and when someone like you cannot be bothered to do a little research, and couches those insults in lies, then I lose all possible respect for that person.

Because it's a tricky business trying to kill your self with long-barrelled weapons? That might certainly make rifles less attractive, for want of a better term. As for shotguns ... maybe people are worried that the dispersal of shot mightn't be certain to kill them, even at point-blank range?

[Jason]

The causation is pretty obvious : convenience and ease make acting out on suicidal pulsion more frequent... though they are more a facilitation factor than actually causative.

Right, not causative.

[Robert_S]

To Pappa

That is a fair point, but it does not fall in line with observed data. Having a hand gun in the home increases the chances of a suicide by 400%. Having a rifle in the home, but no hand gun, increases suicide risk by a lot less.

Here is a Harvard University item on how high gun possession means high rate of death by suicide.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matte ... index.html

You kinda have to put it in your mouth or under your chin for it to work with something that long. Does homophobia save lives in this instance?

[Jason]

Shotgun + hacksaw + 00 buckshot = the majority of matter in your skull being violently ejected onto the ceiling. It's the best way to kill yourself. Far better than a handgun. Anyway, I still don't see why the issue of gun ownership is being compounded with the moral issue of the right to terminate your own existence. It's being taken as granted that suicide is bad m'kay and guns are often involved in suicides m'kay so guns are bad by association m'kay?

[Blind groper]

To Pord

I have already explained why suicide is so bad. In case you did not get it the first time, here it is again.

Allow me to answer that.
If someone really, really wants to die because their life is intolerable, then I would agree that is OK.

The thing is that this is not the way suicides happen, most of the time. The following information comes from detailed research by a number of academics, who have spent a big part of their lives trying to understand would-be suicides.

The majority of suicides and murders have one thing in common. They are acts of impulse. A suicide attempt occurs when someone who is lonely or depressed, and in pain, suddenly decides to end it all. It is not because they actually want to die. It is because they are in pain and cannot think of any other way to end the pain. This drives a temporary impulse, which lasts from a few minutes to a couple of hours. If that person finds a method of killing themselves that actually works, within that limited time period, then they will die.

Most suicide attempts in the USA are by overdosing drugs, or by trying to cut themselves. These methods normally fail. The percentage of people actually dying range from 2% (sleeping pills) to under 10% (cutting). Researchers have found that the majority who survive never try again. They go on to live full lives, and have the same chance of finding love and happiness as other people.

There are two methods, though, that normally kill the would-be suicide. Jumping off a high place, and the use of a hand gun. Success rate over 90%. With the hand gun, the small number who survive probably wish they had not, since brain injury is very, very serious.

Jumping off a high place is much rarer, for the simple reason that the impulse to suicide normally passes before those people get to a high place. A few try, and survive. I remember a story, from interviewing a guy who jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge and survived. He said he changed his mind after he jumped and was falling. He realised, big time, that his biggest problem was simply the fact that he was falling from the bridge. Every other problem became very, very small.

Hand guns are the big success story with suicide. 60% of all American suicides are with hand guns. Homes with a hand gun have a 400% higher chance of a family member suiciding than homes without. Hand guns do not give a person with a temporary impulse to suicide the second chance that drugs or cutting usually does. These are people who, if no hand gun was available, would get through the impulse and live long lives with the same chance at love and happiness as other people. Because a hand gun is available, they lose that chance.

Does that explain why hand gun suicide is such a tragedy?

[klr]

We're over the 1,000 mark, so "thread locked". Feel free to start a continuation thread.