I Didn’t Mean Muslim Ones!

[maiforpeace]

I'm not denying that in some cases political indoctrination has occurred (for example, the case where a teacher had her students do projects that were pro-Obama), but I don't consider including LGBT families in the larger narrative as being political indoctrination.

Teaching, or should I say insisting on tolerance IS indoctrination. We should be free to tolerate or abhor what we choose, especially when the new requirement of acceptance goes against established societal norms.

Established societal norms are changing dude - wake up to a new century.

Besides, nobody's insisting that gay people be tolerated. You still are allowed to be as bigoted as you are, aren't you?

[Tyrannical]

I'm not denying that in some cases political indoctrination has occurred (for example, the case where a teacher had her students do projects that were pro-Obama), but I don't consider including LGBT families in the larger narrative as being political indoctrination.

Teaching, or should I say insisting on tolerance IS indoctrination. We should be free to tolerate or abhor what we choose, especially when the new requirement of acceptance goes against established societal norms.

Established societal norms are changing dude - wake up to a new century.

Besides, nobody's insisting that gay people be tolerated. You still are allowed to be as bigoted as you are, aren't you?

No you are not.
You can't post No Gays allowed in your business, rental property, or town. And you are taught in schools and the media that to do so would be wrong.
Could a local school board decide that they wanted to teach that homosexuals are abhorrent and should be shunned?

Societal norms may be changing, but the indoctrination started in the legal system where over active imaginations decided that past precedents and norms were all of a sudden illegal.

[Warren Dew]

Warren, I think the people creating the literature, ads, posters, etc. will always be in a lose-lose situation. If they show homosexual couples at their current social ratio, at most they'll represent maybe 10% of the material produced. That's so low, nobody would notice and they'd likely be chastised for the overwhelming portrayal of white, heterosexual nuclear families. If they portray enough homosexual couples/families to be noticeable, they'll be accused of over-representation.

The same applies to racial portrayals. In order to represent racial diversity, particularly with regards to racial minorities, over-representation is basically a requirement. Otherwise, it's not possible to represent minorities well enough to be visible at all. Throw in "fair" portrayal of gender, sexuality, disability and religion... it becomes very difficult to represent all these elements in a way that appears fair without resorting to over-representation.

I disagree. In particular, commercial advertisements do pretty well on this issue in the U.S. For example, in ads with three or four kids, you'll almost always see one minority, sometimes two, but not always the same minority. Even occasionally seeing the minority is sufficient to get the message that the minority is an accepted part of society.

If this is what you honestly believe, then maybe you need to trust your children to learn. You don't think they are the least bit aware of what's going on around them? Who their friends are, and who their friends parents are? If you don't think they are getting accurate information, you give it to them. You watch the news with them. You learn with them.

Of course they're aware - just as you and I were aware when we grew up in environments that were bigoted against people with Asian ancestry. But why should my children have to grow up in a bigoted environment at all?

[maiforpeace]

Warren, I think the people creating the literature, ads, posters, etc. will always be in a lose-lose situation. If they show homosexual couples at their current social ratio, at most they'll represent maybe 10% of the material produced. That's so low, nobody would notice and they'd likely be chastised for the overwhelming portrayal of white, heterosexual nuclear families. If they portray enough homosexual couples/families to be noticeable, they'll be accused of over-representation.

The same applies to racial portrayals. In order to represent racial diversity, particularly with regards to racial minorities, over-representation is basically a requirement. Otherwise, it's not possible to represent minorities well enough to be visible at all. Throw in "fair" portrayal of gender, sexuality, disability and religion... it becomes very difficult to represent all these elements in a way that appears fair without resorting to over-representation.

I disagree. In particular, commercial advertisements do pretty well on this issue in the U.S. For example, in ads with three or four kids, you'll almost always see one minority, sometimes two, but not always the same minority. Even occasionally seeing the minority is sufficient to get the message that the minority is an accepted part of society.

If this is what you honestly believe, then maybe you need to trust your children to learn. You don't think they are the least bit aware of what's going on around them? Who their friends are, and who their friends parents are? If you don't think they are getting accurate information, you give it to them. You watch the news with them. You learn with them.

Of course they're aware - just as you and I were aware when we grew up in environments that were bigoted against people with Asian ancestry. But why should my children have to grow up in a bigoted environment at all?

You still haven't proven that it's a bigoted environment.

Clearly, a majority of people don't think it is. That's why I specifically said:

"If this is what you honestly believe".

So, if you honestly think it is a bigoted environment, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court. Or, save yourself the hassle, and home school them.

Some Christians honestly believe that creationism is the truth. So, they send their kids to schools that teach it alongside evolution.

That's what you need to do for your own children then.

And fyi - the statistics I posted for acceptance of gays is for the general population...just take a look at what those statistics are for young people. These changes in the school curriculum only occurred very recently, certainly not long enough to have indoctrinated the 80% some percent of young people who openly accept LGBT's as another form of normal.

[Warren Dew]

So, if you honestly think it is a bigoted environment, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court.

Unfortunately, this form of bigotry is not illegal.

And fyi - the statistics I posted for acceptance of gays is for the general population...just take a look at what those statistics are for young people. These changes in the school curriculum only occurred very recently, certainly not long enough to have indoctrinated the 80% some percent of young people who openly accept LGBT's as another form of normal.

I'm all for acceptance of homosexuality as normal. It's heterosexuality being considered abnormal that I object to. Based on your refusal to answer my earlier questions, evidently you don't.

[cupper3]

So, if you honestly think it is a bigoted environment, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court.

Unfortunately, this form of bigotry is not illegal.

And fyi - the statistics I posted for acceptance of gays is for the general population...just take a look at what those statistics are for young people. These changes in the school curriculum only occurred very recently, certainly not long enough to have indoctrinated the 80% some percent of young people who openly accept LGBT's as another form of normal.

I'm all for acceptance of homosexuality as normal. It's heterosexuality being considered abnormal that I object to. Based on your refusal to answer my earlier questions, evidently you don't.

That is SO well said, and often overlooked by zealots who are driving same sex rights. There are two same sex members of our extended family. They are normal people, and do not rant and rave and run around exposed in those silly gay pride parades. They happen to be attracted to their own sex. It''s not my cup of tea, but they are good people.


I find it interesting that police do not enforce public nudity for those parades. Public policy?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You know that's absurd, don't you Warren?

[maiforpeace]

So, if you honestly think it is a bigoted environment, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court.

Unfortunately, this form of bigotry is not illegal.

And fyi - the statistics I posted for acceptance of gays is for the general population...just take a look at what those statistics are for young people. These changes in the school curriculum only occurred very recently, certainly not long enough to have indoctrinated the 80% some percent of young people who openly accept LGBT's as another form of normal.

I'm all for acceptance of homosexuality as normal. It's heterosexuality being considered abnormal that I object to. Based on your refusal to answer my earlier questions, evidently you don't.

I'm not sure what questions you mean, but frankly, until you prove to me that heterosexuality is considered abnormal, and treated that way in schools, it's kind of a non-discussion.

[hadespussercats]

So, if you honestly think it is a bigoted environment, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court.

Unfortunately, this form of bigotry is not illegal.

And fyi - the statistics I posted for acceptance of gays is for the general population...just take a look at what those statistics are for young people. These changes in the school curriculum only occurred very recently, certainly not long enough to have indoctrinated the 80% some percent of young people who openly accept LGBT's as another form of normal.

I'm all for acceptance of homosexuality as normal. It's heterosexuality being considered abnormal that I object to. Based on your refusal to answer my earlier questions, evidently you don't.

That is SO well said, and often overlooked by zealots who are driving same sex rights. There are two same sex members of our extended family. They are normal people, and do not rant and rave and run around exposed in those silly gay pride parades. They happen to be attracted to their own sex. It''s not my cup of tea, but they are good people.


I find it interesting that police do not enforce public nudity for those parades. Public policy?

I would like nudity to be publicly enforced for all parades.

Come on, Klansmen-- don't be shy.

[maiforpeace]

You know that's absurd, don't you Warren?

Reminds me of part of the script from Breakfast at Tiffany's. At the party. Something about honestly believing something.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You know that's absurd, don't you Warren?

Reminds me of part of the script from Breakfast at Tiffany's. At the party. Something about honestly believing something.

Tiffany never made me breakfast, I always had to be out before her husband got home.

[Jason]

You say we've got nothing in common.
No common ground to start from,
and we're falling apart.

You say the world has come between us,
Our lives have come between us.
Still I know you just don't care.

And I said, "what about Breakfast at Tiffany's?"
She said, "I think I remember the film,
And as I recall, I think, we both kinda liked it"
And I said, "well, that's the one thing we've got"

[JimC]

So, if you honestly think it is a bigoted environment, then put your money where your mouth is and take it to court.

Unfortunately, this form of bigotry is not illegal.

And fyi - the statistics I posted for acceptance of gays is for the general population...just take a look at what those statistics are for young people. These changes in the school curriculum only occurred very recently, certainly not long enough to have indoctrinated the 80% some percent of young people who openly accept LGBT's as another form of normal.

I'm all for acceptance of homosexuality as normal. It's heterosexuality being considered abnormal that I object to. Based on your refusal to answer my earlier questions, evidently you don't.

It would only be a rather deranged minority of gay extremists that would assert that, Warren, and they can simply be ignored, or treated with appropriate derision...

[Robert_S]

If nobody finds your practice of heterosexuality at least a little abnormal from time to time, then you have more pressing issues than a disproportionate representation of queers in schools.

[Warren Dew]

It would only be a rather deranged minority of gay extremists that would assert that, Warren, and they can simply be ignored, or treated with appropriate derision...

Not that easy to do when you're a six year old and the deranged one is a teacher three times your size.