The Frank Zappa thread

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Sean Hayden
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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:13 am

Tero wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 pm
"Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system." - Frank Zappa.
His kids took the hs equivalency test at 15 and passed.
Whatever, I once sat in the gifted kids classroom by mistake.

42, I gave you some numbers not that long ago that show improvement in US public schools. Everyone hates public schools. :sigh:

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Tero » Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:43 pm

Enough of this social science. Back to the basket of deplorables Zappa fans. Titties and beer!
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com
http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Forty Two » Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:57 pm

Tero wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 pm
"Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system." - Frank Zappa.
His kids took the hs equivalency test at 15 and passed.
Indeed, which proves his point, and mine. The public school system is a leveling anchor.

If my kids can't pass the high school equivalency test by the time they've completed 8th grade, I will be very upset with myself. To merely attain that level of knowledge by 17 years old would be embarrassing.
It pays to make the U.S. school system a crock of shit because the dumber the people are that come out, the easier it is to draft them, make them into docile consumers, or, you know, mongo employees. There are plenty of yuppies out there with absolutely nothing upstairs. Graduate airheads with PhDs and everything but they don't know anything.
- Zappa



"It makes sense that we came up with our public school system during the Industrial Revolution because it's like everybody is a factory worker, eating their terrible food and going back to the room where you're silent and listening to an idiot. That's an epitomizing idea..." - Ezra Miller.

Referring to college tuition, but still applicable....

School is not for becoming educated on proper subjects. School is for socialization - and ultimately, when they get to college, students should be focused on contacts, creating a network, and finding dreams and goals and creating plans to reach them.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:35 pm

Ah, Zappa fans.

Of course Zappa is a product of the most socialist period in US history, itself a product of all them dumb factory types organizing...

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Forty Two » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:13 am
Tero wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:04 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:23 pm
"Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system." - Frank Zappa.
His kids took the hs equivalency test at 15 and passed.
Whatever, I once sat in the gifted kids classroom by mistake.

42, I gave you some numbers not that long ago that show improvement in US public schools. Everyone hates public schools. :sigh:
Forgive me, but I do not remember the numbers you posted.

Much of my objection to the public schools is the rigidity, uniformity, and leveling aspect or policy that runs through the public schools I am familiar with. They suck the joy of learning right out of kids. It is the joy of learning that makes a smart kid, and that has to be instilled through great effort. The most effective means is for the parent(s) to do it. Most of my daughter's peers - almost all of them - cannot read.

The public schools are shit for an advanced student. They'll want to pull her down (not consciously - I don't think most teachers want to pull down students who excel) - but the system will pull her down - she will be bored - placed in a row - given stuff to work on that she's known for years - all because her peers were not taught it yet.

And, so much time in public school is wasted. The kids are at school for the day, and like 1/4 of the time is actually spent learning.

We're going the Montessori route, and that's at least a step up from the "line 'em up, and sit them in rows" public school. I take the responsibility to educate them myself - but, I'm not a home school fan.

Not that everything is bad in schools -- the socialization is important. Among the most important skills to learn as early as possible is people skills, conflict resolution and negotiation. These are things that the schools can offer - a crucible in which to place the kids to serve as a beaker in which to mix them. Our kindergarter comes home, and we try to talk through issues at school so she go back armed with tools to resolve people-issues herself. The key is to get them handling things on their own as much as possible early on.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:11 pm

If she is gifted then they should place her with other gifted students. The environment, the teachers and the work are very different in gifted classrooms. They want to place my oldest daughter in gifted classes this year.

In regular classes teachers are supposed to be applying methods that cater to as wide a range of kids as possible. I understand that practically speaking that's not always realistic. But it's nothing like when I was in school and we all received the same instruction and work. The teachers are far more free these days. That doesn't mean you won't get a bad teacher. It is 'dangerous', a gamble. Studies do show that a bad teacher does far more harm than a good teacher does good. Which means that a bad teacher for one year can really set your child back.

But overall I think the system has some good, even great thought put into it. What we need to focus on is getting the right teachers to make it work.

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Forty Two » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:52 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:11 pm
If she is gifted then they should place her with other gifted students. The environment, the teachers and the work are very different in gifted classrooms. They want to place my oldest daughter in gifted classes this year.

In regular classes teachers are supposed to be applying methods that cater to as wide a range of kids as possible. I understand that practically speaking that's not always realistic. But it's nothing like when I was in school and we all received the same instruction and work. The teachers are far more free these days. That doesn't mean you won't get a bad teacher. It is 'dangerous', a gamble. Studies do show that a bad teacher does far more harm than a good teacher does good. Which means that a bad teacher for one year can really set your child back.

But overall I think the system has some good, even great thought put into it. What we need to focus on is getting the right teachers to make it work.


I haven't figured out if she is "gifted" (i.e. higher intelligence generally or innately) of if it's our interaction with her, and teaching. She learned her letters and numbers, for example, as she learned to talk. One of our friends has a daughter a few months older than ours, and she's in kindergarten and just now trying to master the letters and their sounds. Ours had that when she was 2.

One of the big problems around these parts is that many of the public schools are doing away with "gifted and talented" classes, because it supposedly is unfair to the rest of the students, and impacts their self-esteem.

The thing about the strategy of getting the right teachers to make it work is that doing that is a long term strategy - and certainly a good part of the equation long term. But, from the standpoint of my kids now, my strategy is to (a) get them into a school that at least does the least damage (and right now I'm paying through the nose for a privage preschool and kindergarten, because I believe that now - between the ages of 2 and 5 are the most critical), and (b) I will let the schools teach and exercise professional judgment, but I do what needs to be done at home to ensure that what is taught at school represents a bare minimum floor of knowledge, and which my kids will generally exceed. Basically, sending the kids to school, and "home schooling" through fun and interactive activities, as well as books, crafts, games and other fun/stimulating activities.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:55 pm

Yeah, I mean if you have the means you can do better than public school. It's hard to argue with that, and ultimately it's up to us as parents to do what we think is best.

I just want to make sure public schools get the support they need.

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Rum » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:07 pm

I've been following the discussion about public education in the USA with interest, given the last phase of my career concerned managing school and education policy and issues within my county and region.

There are surprising similarities in my experience, though while budgets might be tight here I think it is generally speaking tougher in the USA in that respect.

The reason for my post is the treatment of the gifted and talented. The teaching profession here is strongly (too strongly in my view) unionised and generally speaking those unions are liberal and left leaning. So there is a great deal of emphasis on access to all (my job title was Commissioning Manager, Access to Education..and it involved removing barriers to accessing education for those who struggled to for a wide variety of reasons).

While those at the bottom of the pile suffered educationally for whatever reason, a huge amount of resource and money was thrown at that group, arguably with not a great deal of result. And while teachers loved to teach the cleverest and the brightest, their daily grind involved the middle - the average - and those who struggled and often took up more time and attention.

I always thought the 'gifted' made teachers feel vaguely guilty that they weren't being earnest and dedicated enough and bringing on the poorest and weakest learners. I don't know if that is actually true but it was a strong impression.

As an aside - and I have said this a few times here - one of the biggest barriers to innovative and creative teaching here in the UK is those Unions, which almost universally see change as a challenge to their livelihoods. Salaries and pensions trumped better teaching pretty much every time.

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Tero » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:39 pm

Needs more titties and beer. Not the education, Zappa thread.
https://esapolitics.blogspot.com
http://esabirdsne.blogspot.com/
Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Rum » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:45 pm

Needs splitting for sure..

...and to bring it back on topic:

"You can't write a chord ugly enough to say what you want to say sometimes, so you have to rely on a giraffe filled with whipped cream." Frank Zappa

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:51 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:38 pm
His fans have always put me off his music. No offense Rum, and I know better. :hehe:
Shut up and play yer guitar!


.... is a good place to start for the tremulous and the uninitiated ....



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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Rum » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:08 pm

A musical genius...trapped in the mind of a nasty man. I love him for that.

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Forty Two » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:02 pm

We need to split a threat about Frank Zappa into other threads? Is that because the discussion of his views on education, the schools, church, etc., muck up the discussion of his music and other aspects of him and is views, and lumping them all into one thread makes it hard to have productive discussions?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Frank Zappa thread

Post by Rum » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:45 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:02 pm
We need to split a threat about Frank Zappa into other threads? Is that because the discussion of his views on education, the schools, church, etc., muck up the discussion of his music and other aspects of him and is views, and lumping them all into one thread makes it hard to have productive discussions?
Depends on how long the 'diversion' remains. Looks like it won't be for long so I'm not personally bothered.

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