The beatles were fucking fantastic!

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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 am

I would counter that not being there at the time and not getting swept up in the mania gives me a better perspective on the whole thing because I don't view it from the inside and with a nostalgia connected to the glory days of my youth, but rather from the position of being able to see it in its context in the wider historical narrative.

Also, the guy who was who asked how I can call myself a musician was a whipper snapper compared to me at half my age.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed May 27, 2020 9:29 am

Animavore wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 am
I would counter that not being there at the time and not getting swept up in the mania gives me a better perspective on the whole thing because I don't view it from the inside and with a nostalgia connected to the glory days of my youth, but rather from the position of being able to see it in its context in the wider historical narrative.
That's a good point. But I think looking at them from a historical and social perspective is as useful and important in assessing their importance as a phenomenon aside from their musical impact - when some objective reading of the quality and depth of their musical output is all going to be about taste in the end.
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 am
Also, the guy who was who asked how I can call myself a musician was a whipper snapper compared to me at half my age.
Ah, a hipper-whipper-snapper. Say no more. :D
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Hermit » Wed May 27, 2020 10:39 am

Animavore wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 am
I would counter that not being there at the time and not getting swept up in the mania gives me a better perspective on the whole thing because I don't view it from the inside and with a nostalgia connected to the glory days of my youth, but rather from the position of being able to see it in its context in the wider historical narrative.
How about regarding the Beatles as causing a profound sea-change in popular music while acknowledging they were neither the first nor the last to do so?
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 10:43 am

Hermit wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:39 am
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 am
I would counter that not being there at the time and not getting swept up in the mania gives me a better perspective on the whole thing because I don't view it from the inside and with a nostalgia connected to the glory days of my youth, but rather from the position of being able to see it in its context in the wider historical narrative.
How about regarding the Beatles as causing a profound sea-change in popular music while acknowledging they were neither the first nor the last to do so?
No. I don't agree with that. The sea was changing. They were in the sea.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Tero » Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 am

Before the Beatles: How much is that doggy in the window? (Typical song)
After: Light My Fire
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 10:49 am

Tero wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 am
Before the Beatles: How much is that doggy in the window? (Typical song)
Rock already existed before The Beatles as well as jazz and soul. I'd argue that we've a lot more to thank black artists for the turnaround in music at the time than we do for some white boy imitators, like The Beatles.
Tero wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 am
After: Light My Fire
The Doors were contempories of The Beatles. Not a result of.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Tero » Wed May 27, 2020 11:00 am

There was no way to sell the Doors before the Beatles. Or Zappa. It was all Doggy level songs before that.
An early 60s American hit:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z5jrqe8ryJ8

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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Tero » Wed May 27, 2020 11:06 am

And the Stones? They followed too. Decca had no clue what to sell to teens. Teens did not buy albums till 63 in UK or my Finland. I bought 45s till 66.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 11:10 am

Tero wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:06 am
And the Stones? They followed too. Decca had no clue what to sell to teens. Teens did not buy albums till 63 in UK or my Finland. I bought 45s till 66.
The Stones did not follow The Beatles. They were also contemporaries and played the same clubs together.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Hermit » Wed May 27, 2020 11:13 am

Animavore wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:43 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:39 am
Animavore wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:01 am
I would counter that not being there at the time and not getting swept up in the mania gives me a better perspective on the whole thing because I don't view it from the inside and with a nostalgia connected to the glory days of my youth, but rather from the position of being able to see it in its context in the wider historical narrative.
How about regarding the Beatles as causing a profound sea-change in popular music while acknowledging they were neither the first nor the last to do so?
No. I don't agree with that. The sea was changing. They were in the sea.
Actually, I readily concede that the Beatles were part of the sea-change - along with Bill Haley, Elvis Presley, the Beach Boys and a whole slew of others, but they were not merely passively carried along with the sea. They were major agents of the change.

And the 'Stones never got exposure until after the Beatles did. Same with the Doors and hundreds of other rockers that made it big after the Beatles blazed the trail.
Last edited by Hermit on Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 11:13 am

Tero wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:00 am
There was no way to sell the Doors before the Beatles. Or Zappa. It was all Doggy level songs before that.
You can thank pirate radio more so for helping to sell these acts and forcing the hand of the mainstream media to start playing them as much as anything else.

So many interlocking events, it's not correct to proclaim The Beatles as the starting point of 60s rock. Especially when their early stuff was just as lame as the doggy in the window stuff you cite.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Tero » Wed May 27, 2020 11:15 am

They followed as far as getting signed. The Doors as well as all of psychedelia, Hendrix and all, were all clever market plans to sell "revolution" to the kids. All it took was for George Martin to sign one of them bands. The world was not ready for Satisfaction, so we had to start with hand holding songs.

Please Please Me was step 2. It suggested sex.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 11:23 am

Even if we can credit The Beatles somewhat of mainstreaming rock and roll to a wider audience to some extend I think writing them as a start point in the history of rock is like using Eminem as a starting catalyst in the history of hip hop and downplaying or writing out the black acts that preceded him.
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Tero » Wed May 27, 2020 11:36 am

You were not there so there!
:funny:
If it had been the Stones discovered first, it would have stopped at UK, US east coast, West coast. It would have continued in a smaller way. The Doors would have made records but never become world wide. The Beatles were the model in every country. Because it was mostly a subtle thing teens sensed as new. It was never about the lyrics in 63-65.
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How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?
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Re: The beatles were fucking fantastic!

Post by Animavore » Wed May 27, 2020 11:38 am

Tero wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:36 am
Because it was mostly a subtle thing teens sensed as new.
Teen girls. The Beatles were pretty much a boy band in the beginning.
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