Stalins murdered millions

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Blind groper » Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:19 pm

Seth

You really like to stick with your myths, don't you?

A case where a population supports, rightly or wrongly, an oppressive government cannot be seen as a failed opposition. Both Mao and Stalin were supported by the majority of the people. So there was next to zero opposition. Such minimal opposition that existed was doomed to fail regardless of whether they were armed or not. So you cannot use those examples to illustrate your idiotic thesis that guns are needed to overcome oppression.

Peaceful oppositon now has a long history of success without the pain and hardship that comes with armed opposition.

South Africa is another example. Nelson Mandela is another saintly person in the Mahatma Gandhi mould, and used peaceful means to gain a peaceful end. Apartheid ended because of peaceful opposition, not because of the kind of horrible civil war you seem to love.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:15 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth

You really like to stick with your myths, don't you?
No, I like to respond to the truth-free content you post.
A case where a population supports, rightly or wrongly, an oppressive government cannot be seen as a failed opposition.
Of course it can. The Nazi regime was evil beyond measure notwithstanding the fact that the "population" supported it and the inability of those who recognized and rejected the evil of Nazism to overthrow that regime because it had been disarmed by that regime does not legitimize the dastardly nature of the regime.
Both Mao and Stalin were supported by the majority of the people.
I rather doubt that to begin with, but it's irrelevant anyway because majoritarianism does not render immoral actions by a despot to be moral.
So there was next to zero opposition.


Except for those 40 million people Stalin and his ilk murdered in order to bring the "opposition" to its knees through terrorism.
Such minimal opposition that existed was doomed to fail regardless of whether they were armed or not.
Only the lackey of a totalitarian despot who supports the wholesale murder of innocent people seeking freedom from oppression would say such a thing. Even if what you say were true, it is the right of the oppressed to fight for their freedom, and to keep and bear effective arms with which to do so, regardless of the actual outcome of the effort.
So you cannot use those examples to illustrate your idiotic thesis that guns are needed to overcome oppression.
Sure I can because you're simply idiotically wrong.
Peaceful oppositon now has a long history of success without the pain and hardship that comes with armed opposition.


Yes, it does, except where it does not, which is more often than when it does.

South Africa is another example. Nelson Mandela is another saintly person in the Mahatma Gandhi mould, and used peaceful means to gain a peaceful end. Apartheid ended because of peaceful opposition, not because of the kind of horrible civil war you seem to love.
Indeed. And then there's Zimbabwe, where Mugabe has been murdering and dispossessing whites for decades...after disarming them of course.

No one "loves" civil war, but sometimes civil war is the only recourse left to an oppressed people to gain their freedom from despotism and tyranny, and if they are unarmed they are unlikely to prevail and will therefore be perpetually oppressed and tyrannized. The fact that you cannot accept the fact that there are times when diplomacy fails and war is the only remaining path to liberty shows how grossly stupid your ideology and arguments are.

And the implication in your argument, which is that the citizenry must be disarmed in order to reduce criminal "gun deaths" but which ignores the much greater and much more harmful effects of an unarmed citizenry when tyranny takes over shows a disgusting lack of concern for the lives and rights of innocent people who are seeking liberty and freedom from tyranny. In fact your whole agenda is one of dismissing, ignoring and evading the unintended consequences of your plan to disarm all civilians and of disrespecting and denying those who actually suffer and die because you and your ilk have disarmed them any consideration for their lives, health or rights. In short, you don't give a flying fuck about people being killed or victimized at all, all you care about is taking guns out of society, and not because it will reduce deaths, gun caused or otherwise. You want guns out of society because you support the desire of criminals and despots to go about their chosen trades free of the risk of being killed by their victims, which is a reprehensible and disgusting agenda.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Blind groper » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:53 am

Seth

Please try to READ what I post before you dive into a straw man argument.

I said that if the people support an evil bastard it prevents effective opposition. You argued that Stalin, Hitler etc were evil. Absolutely. I agree. All those arseholes were erxceedingly evil. Which does not alter the fact that they were supported by those they ruled over.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:34 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth

Please try to READ what I post before you dive into a straw man argument.
I do read it, bilge though it may be.
I said that if the people support an evil bastard it prevents effective opposition.
Well, you're wrong to begin with but so what? That doesn't make the evil bastard any less evil nor does it reduce the need for people who don't support him to be armed to take him down.
You argued that Stalin, Hitler etc were evil. Absolutely. I agree. All those arseholes were erxceedingly evil. Which does not alter the fact that they were supported by those they ruled over.
Some of them did. 100 million did not and died as a result. I stand with those victims, each of whom had an absolute right not to be killed by evil despots and an equally absolute right to be armed so that they could fight against such tyranny, even if it was a hopeless attempt.

You can die on your knees sucking tyrant cock if you like. I'll die with an empty, smoking gun and a bloody knife, surrounded by as many of the corpses of my enemies as I can possibly create before they kill me, thanks, because every minion I kill is one less minion the tyrant has with which to oppress others. Enough people like me willing to die to take out the architects and masons of evil results in evil being extirpated and destroyed, just as the Allies did in World War II.

That people die in war is not a reason not to wage war when necessary because the alternative is to abandon the masses to perpetual enslavement and servitude to tyrants and despots, which is simply morally unacceptable to any rational, moral person.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Blind groper » Sat Dec 05, 2015 6:57 pm

Seth

Talking purely hypothetically, if you take up a gun against a tyrant, it means you will die, and no one will mourn your passing. But the problem is that a dozen other people, all innocent and non violent, will die as well, making you a mass murderer.

But the good people of the world do it differently. The Mahatma Gandhis and Nelson Mendelas will use peaceful means. They will succeed where the gun totin', vicious and violent rebels will fail.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:05 pm

Blind groper wrote:Seth

Talking purely hypothetically, if you take up a gun against a tyrant, it means you will die, and no one will mourn your passing.
Perhaps, but that's irrelevant.
But the problem is that a dozen other people, all innocent and non violent, will die as well, making you a mass murderer.
War is hell and nobody who supports a tyrant is innocent.
But the good people of the world do it differently. The Mahatma Gandhis and Nelson Mendelas will use peaceful means. They will succeed where the gun totin', vicious and violent rebels will fail.
Unless they don't, as in the Soviet Union, Communist China, Cambodia and Cuba.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Blind groper » Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:48 am

Let me tell you again, Seth, your examples are not appropriate to the argument you make.

If the majority support the evil bastards in government, as in the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia and Cuba, then the minority who oppose are not going to get anywhere, whether using peaceful or armed methods.

First you have to win the support of the people. If you have that, peaceful means will permit effective opposition to oppression, WITHOUT the enormous price in decades of killings, poverty, maimings, rapes and property damage that comes with civil war.

If a minority try armed guerilla methods to oppose, then you get a situation like the IRA in Northern Ireland, where the harm is terrible, and continues over long periods.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:49 am

Blind groper wrote:Let me tell you again, Seth, your examples are not appropriate to the argument you make.
Your ex-recto opinion is noted and rejected as being stupid, ignorant and irrational.
If the majority support the evil bastards in government, as in the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia and Cuba, then the minority who oppose are not going to get anywhere, whether using peaceful or armed methods.
Perhaps, but it is their sovereign right to try, and their sovereign right to be armed to facilitate that attempt. The potential for failure of an armed revolution is no rational reason not to engage in armed revolution when it is necessary to do so to secure the freedom and liberty of the people.
First you have to win the support of the people.
Interestingly, in the Soviet Union most people DID NOT support communism, which was forced upon them by the minority, but they were terrorized into remaining silent and being obedient by the brutal murders of 40 million of their fellow citizens. When Soviet communism began to dissolve under the economic strain imposed upon it by Ronald Reagan's administration, the USSR's satellite states abandoned communism in a heartbeat and divorced themselves from Russia as quickly as they could and took up capitalism, as in the Ukraine. Only one state remained under Communist control, Belarus, and that is because the administration uses the same terror tactics and murders that Stalin used to maintain power and control over the populace, many of whom have, and continue to try to flee Belarus for freedom in Ukraine and other countries. That's why a fat, ugly old American with a middle-income job can go to Belarus and marry a stunningly beautiful 24 year old Slavic girl in a heartbeat. In fact he has to beat them off with a stick and the most difficult thing about it is choosing from among the bevy of babes who throw themselves at his feet and beg to marry him...because they all want to get the FUCK out of Belarus...before they starve or are disappeared by the government secret police.
If you have that, peaceful means will permit effective opposition to oppression, WITHOUT the enormous price in decades of killings, poverty, maimings, rapes and property damage that comes with civil war.
Unless it doesn't.
If a minority try armed guerilla methods to oppose, then you get a situation like the IRA in Northern Ireland, where the harm is terrible, and continues over long periods.
Then again there are the Colonists in Colonial America circa 1776, the Irish of Ireland, who defeated the Brits and limited their invasion to Northern Ireland, and the Scots, who threw Edward Longshanks out of Scotland at Bannockburn, and the people of Cambodia who overthrew and executed Pol Pot, and the Tibetans who to this day oppose Chinese occupation, among many other historical examples of the failure of diplomacy and the victory of armed action against tyranny and oppression.

Diplomacy is the first, and indeed the best option to resolving political differences, but when diplomacy fails, armed rebellion is a viable and necessary last resort, and an armed citizenry is much more likely to succeed in that event than a disarmed one. And since an armed citiizenry is not a threat to anyone but a despot or tyrant, there is little harm in having the citizenry armed, as both the US and Switzerland prove.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by JimC » Sun Dec 06, 2015 3:51 am

Seth wrote:

...Unless they don't, as in the Soviet Union, Communist China, Cambodia and Cuba....
Their evil (no so much in Cuba, that title belongs to Batista...) regimes eventually failed, faded or (in the case of China) were at least modified. Totalitarian regimes have the seeds of their own failure built in - they simply do not work forever...
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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Blind groper » Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:41 am

To Seth

We were discussing the Russian people's support of Stalin and you jump to another, unspecified time, when you say the Russians did not support the Soviet government. Not the same thing, boyo! Watch those straw men.

On your examples of 'the victory of armed uprisings.'

1. North American colonists. Those guys got their arses kicked in every battle against the British, until the French entered the war. At that point in time, Americans were too small to face the might of the British. But the French were an even bigger super-power than Britain, and they were able to do what the Americans could not. So that is a crappy example.

2. Scottish opposing Britain. Sure they had a temporary victory. Then the English walked all over them, and the result was a massive increase in the misery foisted upon them.

3. Cambodia. Pol Pot outstayed his welcome. He lost the support of the communist party. Thus he lost. However, he was NOT deposed by an armed uprising.

4. Tibet. What a crappy example! They lost, and continued to lose, lose, lose and lose again. Duh!

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:18 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...Unless they don't, as in the Soviet Union, Communist China, Cambodia and Cuba....
Their evil (no so much in Cuba, that title belongs to Batista...) regimes eventually failed, faded or (in the case of China) were at least modified. Totalitarian regimes have the seeds of their own failure built in - they simply do not work forever...
True. Communism always fails, and so does it's intermediary evolutionary state of socialism.

But not soon enough to avoid 100 million people being murdered by them.

And that Batista was a son of a bitch and murderous despot does not excuse Castro or Guevara's brutality.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:29 pm

Blind groper wrote:To Seth

We were discussing the Russian people's support of Stalin and you jump to another, unspecified time, when you say the Russians did not support the Soviet government. Not the same thing, boyo! Watch those straw men.
Er, I specifically told you that Stalin started killing people very early on in his rise to power, which is true.
On your examples of 'the victory of armed uprisings.'

1. North American colonists. Those guys got their arses kicked in every battle against the British, until the French entered the war. At that point in time, Americans were too small to face the might of the British. But the French were an even bigger super-power than Britain, and they were able to do what the Americans could not. So that is a crappy example.
Well, that's just a load of horseshit to begin with and, contrary to your belief, doesn't prove your case, it proves my case. More guns, less tyranny.
2. Scottish opposing Britain. Sure they had a temporary victory. Then the English walked all over them, and the result was a massive increase in the misery foisted upon them.
Because England was better armed.
3. Cambodia. Pol Pot outstayed his welcome. He lost the support of the communist party. Thus he lost. However, he was NOT deposed by an armed uprising.
Um, he was deposed by the Khymer Rouge, who were heavily armed. And the Kyhmer Rouge were eventually defeated by the Vietnamese military, who were heavily armed.
By December 1978, due to several years of border conflict and the flood of refugees fleeing Kampuchea, relations between Cambodia and Vietnam collapsed. On December 25, 1978, the Vietnamese armed forces, along with the Kampuchean United Front for National Salvation, an organization that included many dissatisfied former Khmer Rouge members,[60] invaded Cambodia and captured Phnom Penh on January 7, 1979. Despite a traditional Cambodian fear of Vietnamese domination, defecting Khmer Rouge activists assisted the Vietnamese, and, with Vietnam's approval, became the core of the new People's Republic of Kampuchea; the new government was quickly dismissed by the Khmer Rouge and China as a "puppet government".[59]
4. Tibet. What a crappy example! They lost, and continued to lose, lose, lose and lose again. Duh!
And this means that they should simply bend their knee and submit to Chinese Communist genocidal rule? What a disgusting notion. If they want to fight to the last man, woman and child they deserve to be supplied with the arms with which to do so...or with which to cast China out of their country as the Afghans did the Soviets, by attrition and unswerving dedication to freedom.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by JimC » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:50 am

Seth wrote:

...as the Afghans did the Soviets, by attrition and unswerving dedication to freedom....
Freedom to practice their barbarous religion and assist in plans to attack NY, a freedom assisted by US support during their conflict with the Soviets...
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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Blind groper » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:08 am

Seth

Your examples are not appropriate to the discussion. We were talking of a people resisting an oppressive government. Situations where a major third party, like another nation, charges in, do not fit the disucssion. So France in supporting the American colonists against Britain makes the example inappropriate. Ditto the Pol Pot example.

Stick to the subject, which is an oppressed people resisting an oppressing government. Like Tunisia. Myanmar. India with the Mahatma. Mandela opposing apartheid. Etc.

In almost every case, to achieve success without paying a massive cost in blood and misery, the resistance is peaceful. As soon as people take up guns, the cost rises to include massive human misery and death.

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Re: Stalins murdered millions

Post by Seth » Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:13 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...as the Afghans did the Soviets, by attrition and unswerving dedication to freedom....
Freedom to practice their barbarous religion and assist in plans to attack NY, a freedom assisted by US support during their conflict with the Soviets...
Well, yes, but that's beside the point. At the time they were under attack by the Soviets and they successfully repelled that invasion using arms in part supplied by the United States. That things turned around politically later is irrelevant to the discussion, which is about the need for and efficacy of an armed citizenry to deter or overthrow tyranny.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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