The Truth About Gun Control

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:14 am

Tero wrote:Sorry, the guy is pro gun and if he can't get his message in 7 minutes, I am not going to watch it.
That's because you are intellectually dishonest.
The truth is, not everyone is entitled to a gun.
Well, yes they are until they demonstrate that they aren't.
Not everyone is entitled to drive a car either. Or fly a plane.
Inapt analogy. Everyone is entitled to OWN either a car or an airplane. In fact everyone is entitled to "keep and bear" as many cars or airplanes they can afford.

"Driving" or "flying" a vehicle on public roads or in public airspace is a different thing entirely. You can drive your car on your own private property any time you like, license or not, and you can fly your plane in your own airspace without a license as well, although that's much more difficult because the feds claim title to all airspace you can fly a plane in.

Reasonably regulating the "time, place and manner" of operating a motor vehicle or aircraft is distinguished from the absolute right to own such a vehicle.

So, your analogy is crap because you are arguing about owning, possessing, keeping and bearing of arms, which is explicitly a protected individual right in the US, by using a false equivalency with respect to the OPERATION of firearms, which is something that is already, and always has been, closely and carefully regulated.
Or dispense drugs.
I can dispense any drug I like, to myself or to others so long as said drug is not a controlled substance. Furthermore, I can POSSESS any drug that is not banned, provided I have a prescription for said drug if that is required. The government cannot arbitrarily deny my right to keep and bear or dispense drugs that I am qualified to possess and/or dispense. The fact that one has to jump through regulatory hoops in order to be authorized to do so does not mean that the government possesses the power to completely prohibit me from having drugs, with certain exceptions which are themselves constitutionally questionable.
We regulate things.
Yes, we do. And when it comes to firearms, they are the single most thoroughly regulated consumer product on earth. The problem is that you think that "ban" and "regulate" are synonymous. They aren't. While the keeping, bearing and operating of firearms can be "regulated," and are all regulated to some degree already, that does not mean that the government has unlimited authority to regulate the keeping, bearing or operating of firearms in any way it chooses to do so. And it particularly does not mean that the government has ANY authority to ban guns at the behest of you or anybody else, no matter how many there are of you who wish the government to do so, because the right to keep and bear arms, unlike the right to keep and bear drugs or the right to operate a motor vehicle on a public highway, is explicitly protected against precisely the sort of government infringement that you are suggesting as a part of our national constitution.

The authority of the government, any government at any level in the US, is carefully constrained and limited in its scope. It can neither ban guns entirely nor can it "regulate" them to effectively render them useless for the lawful purposes for which guns are and have traditionally been used. That's what the Supreme Court says. Any regulation of firearms must pass the "strict scrutiny" test of constitutionality, and the burden is upon the government to prove the necessary elements of that test with respect to any regulation it seeks to impose upon the lawful keeping and bearing of arms.
Live with it.
We do live with "it." We just refuse to let you expand the definition of "it" arbitrarily, capriciously and unreasonably in violation of our constitutional civil rights.
I watched 7 minutes.
I'm unsurprised that your attention span is smaller than that of a two year-old.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:36 am

Rum wrote:Looking for something a little less opinion driven? (which, given the pro gun position of your OP I think we can assume the video is)..

http://www.citylab.com/politics/2013/03 ... aths/4902/

Of course it takes a bit longer than watching a video to get to grips with, so you may give it a miss I guess..
The problem with this article, like every other anti-gun article, is that they universally ignore the Law of Unintended Consequences that results from banning guns that results in sky-high violent crime rates and murders in those communities in the US where guns are most strictly regulated. In this case they also speciously insert suicides and elide criminality and the effects on reducing criminality of an armed citizenry from their "statistics."

The other primary fault in the canard they repeat is that the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense is not a matter of statistical apportionment, it is a fully-fledged, complete, absolute right that accrues with one-hundred percent effectiveness to each and every individual regardless of how the peaceable exercise of that right might affect anyone else, especially with respect to how it might or might not affect "the public" as suggested by a statistical analysis of existing gun crime.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, it is constitutionally prohibited for any government at any level in the US to infringe on a law-abiding individual's right to keep and bear arms for any lawful purpose, including self-defense, and any argument that uses "statistics" as a supposed justification for doing so is utterly irrelevant and hopelessly constitutionally flawed. It doesn't matter if 99.9999999 percent of the public wants to infringe on my right to keep and bear arms because "statistics" suggest that doing so will eliminate gun crime, and it doesn't matter if someone claims that my owning a gun presents a risk to the public requiring a ban because my gun might be stolen or I might theoretically go insane and unlawfully shoot people.

That's a risk that we all face and it's a risk that we are all obliged by the Constitution to accept as a part of being a member of the national community. If you don't agree with that obligation your recourse is not to infringe on my rights, your recourse is to sequester yourself somewhere so that you feel safe or renounce your citizenship, get the hell out of the United States, and go to some other place better suited to your anti-gun paranoia, like the UK, Australia or NZ...or Venezuela, Cuba, Communist China, Communist North Korea, or any other Marxist shithole where the proletariat is not permitted to keep and bear arms.

America: Love it or leave it.

Now get the fuck out, Tero.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:41 am

Tero wrote:With guns and crime there is not always cause and effect. You have to look at who has the guns.
Exactly. Which is something you utterly ignore each and every time it's pointed out to you that it's not the number of guns that matters, it's who is in possession of them and to what purpose they put them that counts.

And you likewise dishonestly ignore the fact that gun control laws that require law-abiding individuals to jump through hoops do absolutely nothing about keeping or getting guns out of the hands of people who should not, and are already prohibited by law, from possessing.

If you suggested life in prison for criminals who commit crimes with a gun I'd stand right there beside you and support that cause because criminals with guns is the problem, not law-abiding citizens with guns.

But you don't because you are intellectually dishonest about this subject.

Now head to the nearest federal judge, renounce your citizenship, and get the FUCK out of the United States if you don't like our gun laws.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Tero » Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:58 am

I posted something here in a hurry today. Did it get moved? I just see the old post and one new from Seth.

I do see my post but only when looking at my name and posts.

Confused.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:33 am

Tero wrote:I posted something here in a hurry today. Did it get moved? I just see the old post and one new from Seth.

I do see my post but only when looking at my name and posts.

Confused.
Get the fuck out of the US if you don't like our gun laws because they aren't going to change.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Tero » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:21 pm

Get the fuck out of my post. You were not asked. My confusion was about the forum software.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Tero » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:22 pm

Tero wrote:Idiots, would be rapists, drunks and all sorts of guys with a short fuse get guns.

Ban all hand guns. The Militia Amendment does not require hand guns.

http://verysmartbrothas.com/her-name-wa ... e-said-no/
This is the post I am seeing strangely.

Confused. Now your turn, Seth.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:53 pm

Tero wrote:Get the fuck out of my post. You were not asked. My confusion was about the forum software.
Get the fuck out of my country.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:55 pm

Tero wrote:
Tero wrote:Idiots, would be rapists, drunks and all sorts of guys with a short fuse get guns.

Ban all hand guns. The Militia Amendment does not require hand guns.

http://verysmartbrothas.com/her-name-wa ... e-said-no/
This is the post I am seeing strangely.

Confused. Now your turn, Seth.
You see everything strangely and you're perpetually confused. Now get the hell out of my country.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Tero » Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:36 pm

You forget. I'm not running for president. I can be naturalized. Hillary, Bernie and I will allow you to stay and range free. In Colorado. Stay there.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:10 am

Tero wrote:You forget. I'm not running for president. I can be naturalized. Hillary, Bernie and I will allow you to stay and range free. In Colorado. Stay there.
I don't care if you were born to Betsy Ross and Paul Revere, you don't deserve to enjoy the benefits of America. You should be stripped of your citizenship and deported as an undesirable.

Now get the fuck out of my country. Take Hillary and Bernie with you.

Oh, and try and stop me from ranging over to your house sometime. Please.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Tero » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:09 pm

Charges too weak. Put all people giving guns to felons in jail for life if such guns are used for murder.
A 28-year-old woman was charged Friday with providing the firearms a gunman used to kill three people and wound several others in a shooting rampage in Kansas.

Sarah Hopkins, of Newton, Kan., was accused in federal court of knowingly transferring a firearm to a convicted felon, according to Fox4KC.

A criminal complaint says Hopkins gave two weapons to Cedric Ford who was shot dead by a Hesston Police Chief Doug Schroeder during Thursday shootings at Excel Industries in Hesston, the station reported.

The weapons were a Zastava Serbia, an AK-47-type semi-automatic rifle and a Glock Model 22 40 caliber handgun.

The woman is the mother of Ford’s 4-year-old daughter and 2-year-old son, the Wichita Eagle reported Friday.

The paper reported that during an interview Friday with law enforcement Hopkins admitted purchasing the weapons at a pawn shop in 2014.

During the interview she said that she had a relationship with Ford but left him seven months ago.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/02/27/of ... spect.html
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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:45 pm

Seth wrote:
Rum wrote:In terms of 'facts' the guy in the video listed the source of guns and that most were obtained illegally. In the UK of course guns are not widely available legally or illegally so the comparison is not valid. The USA is swimming in the things.
And the UK is increasingly swimming in illegally smuggled guns, including machine guns.

Your point is???
A bold assertion. 'Swimming in' is hardly a fair or balanced, rational and logical representation of the facts though - let alone it being an assertion supported by anything other an full-stop at the end.

Reported gun crimes in 2015 were up 4% on 2014, but even though 'gun crimes' include licensing and ownership offences (but excluding air weapons) as well as well as usage were up, that 4% rise is still statistically nominal in comparison with the overall downward trend recorded over the last 10 years. Additionally, that spike is nearly fully accounted for by a rise in reported rates within a single Metropolitan area: Greater London.

In broad terms a UK citizen is c.50% less likely to be involved in a gun crime (on either side of the trigger) in 2016 than they were in 2006. and most recent figures show that a population of c.64 million and c.4000 reported gun crimes nationally, gun crime rate per 100,000 is around 0.16 per annum, and falling.
Image
Trends in police recorded crimes in England and Wales involving the use of firearms other than air weapons, year ending March 2003 to year ending September 2015

Office For National Statistics, Crime in England and Wales: Year ending September 2015 (PDF)
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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by rainbow » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:08 am

Seth wrote: Now get the fuck out of my country.
It isn't your country. :fp:

It also belongs to the majority decent American citizens.
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Re: The Truth About Gun Control

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:45 pm

Seth wrote:Now get the fuck out of my country.
No. Now get the fuck out my forum.

:hehe:
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