First we take the guns away from the street, then a year ...

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Tero
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Tero » Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:55 pm

It's been debated endlessly here. Provide a new claim if you have one.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:04 am

I am not claiming anything but just requesting information
The fact it has been debated endlessly is totally irrelevant
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Tero » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:09 am

State your request in one sentence.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Tero » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:14 am

I\m not sure why I should compile information for you. Federal laws even prohibit spending public money on gun violence studies.

Here are some facts that are available.
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/0 ... ns-murder/
http://karireport.blogspot.com/ (:_funny_:)
http://esapolitics.blogspot.com/
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:33 am

Tero wrote:Hillary will change that. We only need one or two new Supreme Court justices.
No, you need a huge army of people willing to die for Hillary as well.
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:36 am

surreptitious57 wrote:How many United States citizens were unlawfully killed last year ( excluding any accidents and suicides ) ?
What is that in percentage terms relative to the total number of guns available to the civilian population ?
The figure will be an accurate representation of the extent of how safe / unsafe guns are in civilian hands
But given that there are estimated to be three hundred million guns in America I expect it to be quite low
Fewer than 0.0004% of guns are ever used criminally. According to BG there are only some 9000 gun-caused homicides in the US each year, out of a population of 300 million guns. You can do the math.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:39 am

Tero wrote:I\m not sure why I should compile information for you.
That you're "not sure" why you should support your arguments demonstrates either gross stupidity or enormous intellectual dishonesty.

I'd say both, with a bias towards the latter because you've been cited to the information many times and you choose to simply ignore any and all information that conflicts with your pre-determined bias.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Tero » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:53 am

Just because we have an amendment, it does not mean the default position is guns. Suppose we had no guns. That is a reasonable starting point. Guns are there to kill people. You can\t claim it is easier to kill people by some other means, for the average citizen. planned acts of terrorism are a different matter.

Why should I then be required to present all the evidence that guns are dangerous? They clearly are. It is you gun proponents that would need all the proof (not NRA sponsored propaganda). There is no such data. You can prove that one gun owner is safer with a gun than he is without. That is about it. That is all you can prove at this point. The gun safety studies we need have been banned by NRA supported politicians.
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Seth » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:07 am

Tero wrote:Just because we have an amendment, it does not mean the default position is guns.
Actually it means EXACTLY that.

Suppose we had no guns.

Suppose we had flying unicorns farting magic rainbows.

That is a reasonable starting point.
No it's not, it's completely irrational and utterly delusional.
Guns are there to kill people.
Among many other uses, yes. But sometimes its necessary to kill a person and a gun is the best tool for the job.
You can\t claim it is easier to kill people by some other means, for the average citizen. planned acts of terrorism are a different matter.
Why would I?

Why should I then be required to present all the evidence that guns are dangerous? They clearly are.
You don't. But then again cars, swimming pools, staircases, five-gallon buckets and steak knives are also dangerous. So the hell what? Life is full of dangerous things. Get used to it.
It is you gun proponents that would need all the proof (not NRA sponsored propaganda). There is no such data.
Proof of what? That guns are less dangerous than, say, automobiles to the average citizen? I don't think that's in dispute.
You can prove that one gun owner is safer with a gun than he is without. That is about it. That is all you can prove at this point.
Well, not hardly but then again we don't need to prove a damned thing else because the whole purpose of lawfully owning a gun for self defense is to make that one gun owner safer.

The gun safety studies we need have been banned by NRA supported politicians.
No, the "gun studies" you WANT, which are bogus, falsified, biased and irrelevant studies intended to infringe on the individual's right to keep and bear arms for self defense on the specious statistical notion that "society" as a whole would be safer without guns, regardless of whether the individual from whom the gun is taken will be safer or at greater risk.

The cool thing about the Constitution is that you don't get to substitute utilitarian arguments such as this for the unalienable, natural, fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense. And the Supreme Court agrees.

So fuck off and get the hell out of my country if you don't like that fact.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Tero » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:12 am

Maybe you should not have any guns. You get pissed off too easily. We'll have to see what kind of test we can come up with, for Hillary to ban your guns.

My country is moving toward something you won't recognize. A cabin in the woods will be your last place to hide. Stock lots of beans.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:17 am

Seth wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
How many United States citizens were unlawfully killed last year ( excluding any accidents and suicides ) ?
What is that in percentage terms relative to the total number of guns available to the civilian population ?
The figure will be an accurate representation of the extent of how safe / unsafe guns are in civilian hands
But given that there are estimated to be three hundred million guns in America I expect it to be quite low
Fewer than 0.0004 of guns are ever used criminally. According to BG there are only some 9000 gun
caused homicides in the US each year out of a population of 300 million guns. You can do the math
I was going to estimate a figure of no more than one per cent but this is significantly less especially given how high the potential
figure could be. This would suggest that the overwhelming majority of Americans are responsible citizens with regard to gun use
While nine thousand deaths is still far too many it could easily be so much higher given the total number of guns freely available
A MIND IS LIKE A PARACHUTE : IT DOES NOT WORK UNLESS IT IS OPEN

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by Tero » Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:51 am

So what? As long as we sell guns to anyone with the cash, the people with unstable minds, criminals etc will dominate the statistics.

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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:05 am

Seth wrote:
The cool thing about the Constitution is that you do not get to substitute utilitarian arguments such as
as this for the unalienable natural fundamental individual right to keep and bear arms for self defense

So fuck off and get the hell out of my country if you do not like that fact
The Constitution guarantees freedom of speech too under the First Amendment so you cannot and indeed should not expect every
other American citizen to think exactly like you on this or any other issue since they have the freedom to think however they wish
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:16 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Seth wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
How many United States citizens were unlawfully killed last year ( excluding any accidents and suicides ) ?
What is that in percentage terms relative to the total number of guns available to the civilian population ?
The figure will be an accurate representation of the extent of how safe / unsafe guns are in civilian hands
But given that there are estimated to be three hundred million guns in America I expect it to be quite low
Fewer than 0.0004 of guns are ever used criminally. According to BG there are only some 9000 gun
caused homicides in the US each year out of a population of 300 million guns. You can do the math
I was going to estimate a figure of no more than one per cent but this is significantly less especially given how high the potential
figure could be. This would suggest that the overwhelming majority of Americans are responsible citizens with regard to gun use
While nine thousand deaths is still far too many it could easily be so much higher given the total number of guns freely available
Working out the probability of criminality per gun is ridiculous. It only takes one gun to kill someone. The stats should be worked out as criminality per gun owner.
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Re: First we take the guns away from the street, then a year

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:18 am

Seth wrote: So fuck off and get the hell out of my country if you don't like that fact.
You don't even believe in society, so I don't know where you get the temerity to care or speak for a whole country. And you represent a tiny minority political view in your country. Tero is in a far better position to claim allegiance to the US and it's people.
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