When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Thu May 07, 2015 6:34 pm

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:To disarm myself on the premise that I might hurt myself is pure idiocy...for any rational person...for the same reason that you don't turn in your kitchen knife and hammer.
False comparison fallacy. I regularly need my kitchen knife and hammer.
I've lived sixty five years without any need for guns or body armour.
Lucky you. Not everybody is that lucky, even where you live. So by what right do you support infringing on their right to effective self defense? Paranoia? Insufficient justification.
Fail, yet again. :biggrin:
Yes, you have failed by stating a fallacy of composition. Just because A (you) has characteristic Y (never needed a gun) does not mean that all of A (everybody else on the planet) has characteristic Y (never needed a gun).
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by JimC » Thu May 07, 2015 9:24 pm

... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Fri May 08, 2015 12:25 am

JimC wrote:... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
Yup. That's a valid point as well, but cannot be taken to mean that nobody ever needs a gun for self defense.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by rainbow » Fri May 08, 2015 9:14 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
Yup. That's a valid point as well, but cannot be taken to mean that nobody ever needs a gun for self defense.
In civilised countries, people who require a gun for self-defence apply for a license, and if they can provide justification and competence, then they can get one.

Would this be a problem to you?
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by JimC » Fri May 08, 2015 9:34 am

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
Yup. That's a valid point as well, but cannot be taken to mean that nobody ever needs a gun for self defense.
In civilised countries, people who require a gun for self-defence apply for a license, and if they can provide justification and competence, then they can get one.

Would this be a problem to you?
I'll answer for Seth...

"The Marxist (or about to become Marxist) government would use any such regulation as an excuse to remove the guns from people most likely to oppose it, thus enabling it to crush the people under its jack-booted rule"
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Fri May 08, 2015 6:05 pm

rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
Yup. That's a valid point as well, but cannot be taken to mean that nobody ever needs a gun for self defense.
In civilised countries, people who require a gun for self-defence apply for a license, and if they can provide justification and competence, then they can get one.

Would this be a problem to you?
Yes, because anyone may require a gun for self defense at any moment and "justification" means subjecting their need to exercise a right to the whims and caprices of a bureaucrat who, for reasons of his own, may decide there is insufficient justification. The "need" component is the most-abused aspect of several of the now-mandatory CCW laws in the US, particularly places like NYC, NJ, Chicago etc. where unless you are politically connected it is flatly impossible to demonstrate sufficient "need" to be issued a license. The same is true in the UK, just to own a gun. In Canada, if you apply for a gun license and put "self defense" down as the reason you want one, you will be denied, as armed self defense is not considered to be adequate justification to own a gun. Which is of course absurd.

I'm not opposed to a training requirement, as we require that for hunters (hunter safety education). Indeed I advocate universal firearms training as a mandatory part of primary and secondary public education at all levels, beginning in the first grade and continuing through high school graduation, where a successful student is issued a certificate of training, a concealed carry permit, and government-issued handgun and standard military rifle that they must keep, maintain and remain proficient with during their tenure in the Unorganized Militia. At the end of that tenure (18 to 45), if they are in good standing, a grateful nation gives them title to the weapons in return for their service to the nation.

Nor am I axiomatically opposed to requiring a permit for concealed carry, although it's largely unnecessary, but as it is here in Colorado and many other states, the issuance of a permit must not be discretionary on the part of reviewing authority (county sheriff in Colorado, a state agency in other states). If the individual meets the criteria set forth in the law, such as not being a criminal or drug user or suchlike, then the permit must be issued.

One complaint I have about Colorado's law is that it requires a permittee to notify the issuing department of any change of address within 30 days. There is no need for this information in the first place, and it's a function of the way the system was set up, with the local sheriff issuing the permit rather than a state agency issuing it as is done in places like Florida. I see no compelling need for the agency to even know the address of the applicant at all. If a person is legally qualified to own firearms and meets the standards for a CCW permit, then she should be issued a permit that is valid everywhere in the state, regardless of place of residence. Once every five years, at renewal, the applicant must prove state residency but not place of residence. This change prevents the data from even potentially being used by hostile politicians or law enforcement to abuse the rights of the individual. Better yet would be a federal CCW permit issued by the federal government that, like a passport, is valid anywhere in the United States without reference to one's place of residence.

One way in which abuse of residence and permit information happens, ie: when guns are registered to people and addresses, is that there is a tendency for law enforcement to grossly overreact if there is a call for service at that address. Numerous cases of SWAT teams creating unnecessary terror and panic (and deaths) at law-abiding citizen's homes merely because there is known to be a firearm there through the licensing system.

This also applies to vehicle stops, where, when an officer checks the vehicle database the owner is shown to either have a weapon or a permit for a weapon, it results in a "felony stop" which may involve officers pointing guns at the occupants unnecessarily. Many argue that the police have a right to know if someone they are contacting is armed or not, but this is not the case. The police do NOT have such a right. Being a police officer involves dealing with people who are armed, and the only ones who are a threat to officers are armed criminals. The presumption taught to police officers in basic training is that you assume that everyone you meet is armed and you use good practices and procedures to reduce the chances of any weapon being used against you, but because it is not automatically illegal for a law-abiding citizen to be armed, it is beyond the authority of the police to treat every person they meet as if they have hostile intentions and subject them to pat-downs, frisks, detentions, physical force or arrests merely because it is possible, or even known that the person is lawfully armed. That goes beyond the authority the police have and trenches on the law-abiding individual's right to keep and bear arms.

Encountering armed persons in our society is an inherent risk that police officers must accept and deal with within the bounds of the Constitution. If they are so fearful of armed citizens that they cannot perform their duties without trenching on law-abiding citizen's rights, then they do not belong in law enforcement.

I'm willing to concede that mandatory education for every citizen be a requirement in order to purchase (but not possess) a firearm. Like the hunter safety card, you take the class, you get the card, which never expires, and you present it to the gun dealer when you buy a gun. Added to this is mandatory firearms education in schools so that in a generation firearms training will be universal, and certification automatic. For concealed carry for self-defense I am willing to accede to a permitting system for the individual, but it must be a "shall issue" system that is not discretionary, and it must not provide the government with a defacto gun registration list. It is not relevant what particular weapon the individual chooses to carry, nor how many that person owns, so the permit should be for "weapons" not just "handguns" so it includes knives and other levels in the continuum of force that we allow police officers to carry.

For open carry, no permitting, licensing or weapons registration can be allowed to the government, because the power to license is the power to deny, and the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, except as a result of an individual's bad behavior.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Fri May 08, 2015 6:15 pm

JimC wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
Yup. That's a valid point as well, but cannot be taken to mean that nobody ever needs a gun for self defense.
In civilised countries, people who require a gun for self-defence apply for a license, and if they can provide justification and competence, then they can get one.

Would this be a problem to you?
I'll answer for Seth...

"The Marxist (or about to become Marxist) government would use any such regulation as an excuse to remove the guns from people most likely to oppose it, thus enabling it to crush the people under its jack-booted rule"
Not necessarily even the Marxists. Right wing fascists do the same thing. Disarming the populace is the first order of business of every tyrant in recorded history regardless of political affiliation. And that is why government must never be allowed to know who has guns, what guns they have, or where those guns are.

Vetting the individual to ensure that they are qualified to carry a gun in public is one thing, but all that requires is minimal training certification (that does not require a government database that tracks the individual) and a criminal background check. Beyond that, the government has no business knowing anything about law-abiding gun-owning citizens. It has no demonstrable need for this information and the ONLY reason the government can possibly desire this information is so that if it decides to do so, it can identify gun owners and their weapons and location, and the ONLY reason they would want this information is so it can be used to confiscate such weapons, which is something the People cannot permit.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by JimC » Fri May 08, 2015 10:15 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:... or the characteristic "needs a gun"... :tea:
Yup. That's a valid point as well, but cannot be taken to mean that nobody ever needs a gun for self defense.
In civilised countries, people who require a gun for self-defence apply for a license, and if they can provide justification and competence, then they can get one.

Would this be a problem to you?
I'll answer for Seth...

"The Marxist (or about to become Marxist) government would use any such regulation as an excuse to remove the guns from people most likely to oppose it, thus enabling it to crush the people under its jack-booted rule"
Not necessarily even the Marxists. Right wing fascists do the same thing. Disarming the populace is the first order of business of every tyrant in recorded history regardless of political affiliation. And that is why government must never be allowed to know who has guns, what guns they have, or where those guns are.

Vetting the individual to ensure that they are qualified to carry a gun in public is one thing, but all that requires is minimal training certification (that does not require a government database that tracks the individual) and a criminal background check. Beyond that, the government has no business knowing anything about law-abiding gun-owning citizens. It has no demonstrable need for this information and the ONLY reason the government can possibly desire this information is so that if it decides to do so, it can identify gun owners and their weapons and location, and the ONLY reason they would want this information is so it can be used to confiscate such weapons, which is something the People cannot permit.
What about those people in the community who have a psychiatric condition?
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Fri May 08, 2015 11:37 pm

JimC wrote: What about those people in the community who have a psychiatric condition?
Depends on the condition and whether they have demonstrated a desire to hurt someone else. That falls under the category of "you have to do something wrong before your rights can be restricted." That means an individualized, particularized determination that probable cause exists to believe a particular individual cannot safely exercise his or her rights, not a general government policy of denying rights to everyone on the specious notion that some tiny number of them might misbehave.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Sat May 09, 2015 12:33 am

Firefighters with Concealed Carry Permits Stop Would-Be Mass Shooting

by AWR Hawkins8 May 20150
On May 5, two firefighters with concealed carry permits stopped a man allegedly attempting to shoot kids and firemen at the fire station.

According to Fox Carolina, “Children and firefighters” were in the station parking lot when, at about 6:30 p.m. at New Holland, Wisconsin’s Fire Station 2, Chad Barker allegedly pulled up, got out of his car, and opened fire. He allegedly fired in the air and at his own vehicle and “pointed the firearm at individual firefighters for lengthy periods of time.”

Firefighter Gary Knoll said, “I came out of the office, saw the man with the gun, told everybody to leave out the back quickly, that there was a man in the parking lot with a gun, and I was not kidding.”

Knoll has his concealed permit, and he had a gun with him, as did another firefighter on the scene. Both approached Barker at gunpoint and talked him into dropping his weapon.

Firefighters then “detained Barker … until deputies arrived and locked him up.”

Barker was charged “with two counts of pointing and presenting a firearm.”

Knoll, happy that he and the other firefighter had concealed permits and had guns on their persons, said, “It saved a life, if not multiple.”

"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Seth » Sat May 09, 2015 5:18 am

Store Clerk Snatches Shotgun Away, Pulls Own Gun and Kills Robber
1
Channel 2 News

by AWR Hawkins8 May 20150
On May 7, two robbers allegedly entered the Smoke Shop in Decatur, Georgia, and “put the barrel of a shotgun to the neck of the store clerk.” The clerk managed to grab the shotgun and move it, then pull his own gun, shoot, and kill one of suspects.

The incident took place around 1 p.m.

According to WSB-TV 2, once the barrel of the shotgun was placed against the clerk’s neck, he grabbed it “and pulled out his gun.” He then “fired several rounds, striking one of the two robbers.”

One of the two suspects died in the Smoke Shop and the other “fled in a white SUV.” The suspect who fled was arrested approximately three hours later.

Police indicated “the same two armed robbers tried to rob another business less than a mile away from the Smoke Shop.” For this reason, they are not releasing the identity of the suspect in custody, as they want him to appear in a photo lineup.

"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Svartalf » Sat May 09, 2015 7:00 am

JimC wrote:
What about those people in the community who have a psychiatric condition?
I have a psychiatric condition, and I'm no danger for myself or the neighbourhood, even if I had any gunz.
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by JimC » Sat May 09, 2015 7:29 am

Svartalf wrote:
JimC wrote:
What about those people in the community who have a psychiatric condition?
I have a psychiatric condition, and I'm no danger for myself or the neighbourhood, even if I had any gunz.
In your case, sure, but there will be a number in any community with a diagnosed psychiatric condition who could very easily snap. If guns are available, that snap may become a tragedy...

From Seth's point of view, where only a past criminal record is the determinant, such tragedies are the price one pays for the freedom to have guns.

I'm glad I live in a relatively sane society...
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by mistermack » Sat May 09, 2015 8:49 am

Store Clerk Snatches Shotgun Away, Pulls Own Gun and Kills Robber . . . .
The logical lesson to draw from this is to ban all guns, and smoke shops, and rigorously enforce the bans.

Problem solved and many lives saved.
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Re: When seconds count, the police are only...seconds away

Post by Hermit » Sat May 09, 2015 9:00 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:What about those people in the community who have a psychiatric condition?
you have to do something wrong before your rights can be restricted.
Martin Bryant never did anything wrong before using his legally acquired guns to go on his killing spree, and I kind of suspect that he was not the only one, many of whom don't even suffer from an identifiable "psychiatric condition", to commit a first offence using legally owned firearms.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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