Only in America

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Tero
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Re: Only in America

Post by Tero » Wed Oct 27, 2021 2:40 am

No victims shot
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Re: Only in America

Post by Tero » Thu Oct 28, 2021 11:16 am

In America, the court cases of shootings (where a shooter has a gun an victim has the bullet in them and dies) are done with all fairness. You have to have a trial to determine which one was the victim:
1 If the judge in the Rittenhouse case doesn't like the word 'victim', perhaps the phrase 'unarmed person shot to death' might do the trick.

2 You can't use the word "victim" because that implies to the jury that Rittenhouse is guilty before the evidence is even presented. The question the law is considering is about self-defense. So the trial is literally trying to figure out who the victim is.

Also, watch the videos.
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Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Re: Only in America

Post by Tero » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:53 am

NYT
Over the past five years, police officers have killed more than 400 drivers or passengers who were not wielding a gun or a knife, or who weren’t under pursuit for a violent crime — a rate of more than one a week, a Times investigation found.

Many were stopped for common traffic offenses: a broken taillight, running a red light or swerving across double yellow lines. Relative to the population, Black drivers were overrepresented among those killed.

Traffic stops — which can be driven by the demand for revenue to fund towns — are the most common interactions between police officers and the public. The police consider them among the most dangerous things

Officers have been charged in 32 cases, and nearly two dozen are pending. Only five officers have been convicted of crimes for the killing of motorists. But The Times found that evidence often contradicted the officers’ accounts. A visual investigation rolled back the footage capturing 120 fatal traffic stops and found that in dozens of incidents, officers made tactical mistakes that put them in positions of danger.
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Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Re: Only in America

Post by Tero » Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:35 pm

BE75E7FE-856A-41B1-A130-8438FA4CB47B.jpeg
Rittenhouse cries on stand.
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Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:22 pm

They took his gun away from him?
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:05 am

The prosecution's witness admitted Rittenhouse only shot him after he drew his gun and approached him. Oh, and he was carrying illegally and has ties to extremists.

It's not looking good for them.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:42 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:05 am
The prosecution's witness admitted Rittenhouse only shot him after he drew his gun and approached him. Oh, and he was carrying illegally and has ties to extremists.

It's not looking good for them.
That witness would have been Gaige Grosskreutz. He aimed a gun at Rittenhouse immediately after Rittenhouse killed two protesters, the first of whom was totally unarmed and the second of whom was armed with a skateboard. Yes, that does look bad.

As for the ties Grosskreutz allegedly has with extremists, who are they, and what extreme activities have they committed?
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:51 am

No. He aimed a gun at him after following him. The person armed with a skateboard had chased him as well and even hit him with it. Witnesses said the other victim had also chased Rittenhouse before yelling "fuck you" and trying to take his gun.

I won't be surprised if his self-defense argument works.

--//--

As for only a skateboard, that's not going to fly given the situation and the potential to produce scenes like the following.



--//--

What continues to bother me is that it's possible to take the law into your own hands, kill someone while acting as the law, and still have the option of claiming self-defense. It's truly bizarre.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:48 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 9:51 am
No. He aimed a gun at him after following him. The person armed with a skateboard had chased him as well and even hit him with it. Witnesses said the other victim had also chased Rittenhouse before yelling "fuck you" and trying to take his gun.

I won't be surprised if his self-defense argument works.

--//--

As for only a skateboard, that's not going to fly given the situation and the potential to produce scenes like the following.



--//--

What continues to bother me is that it's possible to take the law into your own hands, kill someone while acting as the law, and still have the option of claiming self-defense. It's truly bizarre.
Still: Rittenhouse killed two protesters, the first of whom was totally unarmed and the second of whom was armed with a skateboard. I really don't know how the defence could successfully argue that the killings were justified. Then again, this happened in the US, a country that appears increasingly bizarre to me with each news report of this type.

As for the video you linked to, there were six to ten attackers armed with skateboards laying into the victim for 60 seconds. The victim was hospitalised. Are you seriously suggesting that Rittenhouse was justified in killing his pursuer?
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Re: Only in America

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:23 am

... given that he was being 'pursued' because he'd already shot and killed someone?

That 'one good citizen with a gun' argument from the NRA et al doesn't seem to apply does it? Shouldn't we be commending the guy with the gun for not shooting Rittenhouse, even after he'd fatally discharged his weapon for the second time?
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:25 pm

Actually he was being pursued before shooting anyone. Unfortunately the version of events you're working with turned out not to be true.

--//--

Hermit, I'm not sure why you think the number of attackers is critically important. (There were potentially several more in a highly charged situation) Is the magic number 6, or would 2 be enough?

More important to the defense than the number of people with a skateboard is the situation and what a reasonable person might think could happen. In my opinion it's perfectly reasonable for anyone in that situation to fear for their life. In fact, only an idiot would not perceive the danger Rittenhouse put himself in.

The problem continues to be for me that he was acting as the law and someone got killed. The idea that we can treat the events immediately preceeding the shootings as wholly separate from the larger picture seems disingenuous and frankly unjust. You can't be allowed to arm yourself and patrol the streets.

--only apparently we're okay with that here :sigh:

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Re: Only in America

Post by Tero » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:31 pm

If the law allowed Kyle to carry such a weapon and produce the conflict, we can blame the law more than him. But it does not prevent us considering his motives to be there.
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Said Peter...what you're requesting just isn't my bag
Said Daemon, who's sorry too, but y'see we didn't have no choice
And our hands they are many and we'd be of one voice
We've come all the way from Wigan to get up and state
Our case for survival before it's too late

Turn stone to bread, said Daemon Duncetan
Turn stone to bread right away...

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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:35 pm

Well put Tero.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:56 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:25 pm
Hermit, I'm not sure why you think the number of attackers is critically important.
Actually, I don't. What I regard as important is that someone decided it was a good idea to take an interstate trip to a protest armed with an assault style semi automatic rifle and finish up killing two unarmed protesters. I do not understand why you can't see how utterly bizarre that scenario is.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:06 pm

We agree with each other then as that's what bothers me too.

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