Only in America

Guns don't kill threads; Ratz kill threads!
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Scot Dutchy
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Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:56 pm

The "cold war" had no function accept as I already said to sell weapons (satisfying the then 1%), make excuses to play war games (keeping generals happy) and subject various societies to right wing dominance. In the 50's after WW2 most of Western Europe was seeing the benefit of the socialist way to run a society. Even though many were under the yoke of the Marshall plan which was solely for the benefit of American industry and was a pure burden on many countries. It did work but could have be done for the benefit of everyone. Socialism was one step too far for the Americans so immense pressure was applied to force capitalism into Europe. Luckily the full blown version America wanted did not happen and most adapted to a social democratic form of government.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:39 pm

Yeah! That Democrat Harry Truman was so right-wing, and the US with its New Deal and its 90% top marginal tax rate was all about exerting "right wing dominance"!

The true purpose of NATO was in fact NOT "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down" as (British) General Hastings Ismay put it, because as we all know, the Germans and Rooskies were total pacifists at the time, unlike those awful, warmongering Merkins! :lay:


Seriously, where do you get your history from, Dutchy, old Pravda articles?
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Re: Only in America

Post by Rum » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:57 pm

Seabass wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:39 pm
Yeah! That Democrat Harry Truman was so right-wing, and the US with its New Deal and its 90% top marginal tax rate was all about exerting "right wing dominance"!

The true purpose of NATO was in fact NOT "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down" as (British) General Hastings Ismay put it, because as we all know, the Germans and Rooskies were total pacifists at the time, unlike those awful, warmongering Merkins! :lay:


Seriously, where do you get your history from, Dutchy, old Pravda articles?
I started to respond to his history denying analysis but there's no point really. He'll just end up repeating himself and insist the Netherlands would have a much better Cold War. The best in fact.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:04 pm

:hehe: It's true. Nobody can Cold War like the Dutch. Except for maybe Donald Trump...
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:34 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:21 pm
Admittedly the US is a bit of an outlier -- militarily, economically, and geographically
The US wasn't that much of an outlier before the Cold War. The Cold War and World Wars shaped the US as much as the US shaped them. This country used to have socialist and communist parties. Well, technically we still do, but obviously they were more or less wiped during the Cold War. The US also elected the social democrat FDR to the White House four times. The US army had a mere 175,000 soldiers in 1939. Hardly the militarized monstrosity that it is today.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Only in America

Post by laklak » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:35 pm

Vietnam got pretty hot, almost 60,000 dead 'Murikan kids. Korea cost about 35,000. Both are called "proxy wars", but I disagree, there wasn't anything proxy about the Vietnam or Korean war on our side of the chessboard. Maybe those 300,000 howling Red Chinee who boiled across the Yalu River were a proxy for the Soviets, but they had real guns and were shooting real bullets at real 'Murikans. We've never had a direct dust-up with the Ruskies, but that may happen when they're proxies for their Chinese overlords.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Rum » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:44 pm

The doctrine of the so called 'domino theory' was one of the factors as I recall. The theory went that you had to stop the Red Menace before he knocked one domino down and moved on to the next. The fear was, especially in Vietnam that all of SE Asia would turn red. America didn't, in my estimation anyway, realise the nationalism element and motivation in the war.

Anyways the yellow peril discovered state capitalism in the end and that seemed to quieten things down a bit.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:24 am

Seabass wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:39 pm
Yeah! That Democrat Harry Truman was so right-wing, and the US with its New Deal and its 90% top marginal tax rate was all about exerting "right wing dominance"!

The true purpose of NATO was in fact NOT "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down" as (British) General Hastings Ismay put it, because as we all know, the Germans and Rooskies were total pacifists at the time, unlike those awful, warmongering Merkins! :lay:


Seriously, where do you get your history from, Dutchy, old Pravda articles?
Where did you get yours FBI hand outs? What "history " did they teach you at school? How America saved the world from those bad bad commies. Never mind what the KKK was doing but of course that was never mentioned. How was McCarthy explained? All those Pinkos. Reds were everywhere. I suppose you were told that the USA was a bastion of democracy when in fact it is corrupt as a banana republic.
America was keeping the peace then fighting the Koreans demanding that we supplied troops otherwise the Marshall Plan would be stopped? It made hardly any difference it was stopped the following year to pay for the Korean war. The arms manufactures had found another tit to suck from.

NATO like UN was set up by the USA as tools to further their brand of capitalism. Even the Peace Corps were set up to further this aim. I suppose when America was cleaning up its "Own Backyard" it was in the name of peace and the Peace Corps was there.

The Germans had nothing to say then so how could they be pacifists? America was fiercely against the setting up of the EU. Was that in the name of peace or capitalism. That is now Trumps greatest aim its destruction.
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Re: Only in America

Post by laklak » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:15 pm

We didn't like the idea of the EU because y'all were always raping, killing, pogroming, and genociding each other, and we didn't want you banding together to kill other people, particularly us. That's not meant as a criticism, you can't help your history of bloodthirsty tribalism and superstition any more than the Hutus and Tutsis can.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:05 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:24 am
Seabass wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:39 pm
Yeah! That Democrat Harry Truman was so right-wing, and the US with its New Deal and its 90% top marginal tax rate was all about exerting "right wing dominance"!

The true purpose of NATO was in fact NOT "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down" as (British) General Hastings Ismay put it, because as we all know, the Germans and Rooskies were total pacifists at the time, unlike those awful, warmongering Merkins! :lay:


Seriously, where do you get your history from, Dutchy, old Pravda articles?
Where did you get yours FBI hand outs? What "history " did they teach you at school? How America saved the world from those bad bad commies. Never mind what the KKK was doing but of course that was never mentioned. How was McCarthy explained? All those Pinkos. Reds were everywhere. I suppose you were told that the USA was a bastion of democracy when in fact it is corrupt as a banana republic.
America was keeping the peace then fighting the Koreans demanding that we supplied troops otherwise the Marshall Plan would be stopped? It made hardly any difference it was stopped the following year to pay for the Korean war. The arms manufactures had found another tit to suck from.

NATO like UN was set up by the USA as tools to further their brand of capitalism. Even the Peace Corps were set up to further this aim. I suppose when America was cleaning up its "Own Backyard" it was in the name of peace and the Peace Corps was there.

The Germans had nothing to say then so how could they be pacifists? America was fiercely against the setting up of the EU. Was that in the name of peace or capitalism. That is now Trumps greatest aim its destruction.
NATO was not "set up by the USA". NATO was the result of the Treaty of Brussels signatories' desire to bring more countries on board in order to strengthen western Europe's defenses against potential hostilities from the Soviets. If you can't even get that right, then you're not going to get anything else right.

Netherlands was one of the Treaty of Brussels countries by the way. So it would actually be closer to the truth to say that NATO was set up by the Netherlands as tools to further their brand of capitalism. Why are you damn Dutchies so aggressive and adversarial?! :lay:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Only in America

Post by Rum » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:29 pm

It’s their mindset dontcha know. :hehe:

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Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:35 pm

NATO was not "set up by the USA". NATO was the result of the Treaty of Brussels signatories' desire to bring more countries on board in order to strengthen western Europe's defenses against potential hostilities from the Soviets. If you can't even get that right, then you're not going to get anything else right.

Netherlands was one of the Treaty of Brussels countries by the way. So it would actually be closer to the truth to say that NATO was set up by the Netherlands as tools to further their brand of capitalism. Why are you damn Dutchies so aggressive and adversarial?! :lay:
You will believe anything wont you. No evidence just claim after claim. Of course we signed it. Do you have any idea what is was like in the 50's? This country was busy with rebuilding of itself. You had the warmonger Prins Bernard (Queen Juliana's husband) snuggling up to the Americans getting big backhanders.

Lockheed bribery scandals

JFCOAPS America wanted to sell arms at all cost. Bernard was bloody fool. Selling arms had to have a goal. So set up an organisation that needed arms. Bernard was stripped of all his ranks and uniforms. He recognised two bastard children.

You are so bloody naive I am really surprised. The biggest con ever and you dont see it.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:36 pm

Unless the Dutch are capable of time travel, your theory doesn't hold water.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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Re: Only in America

Post by Rum » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:03 pm

I'm puzzled, as so often, by SD's approach to history and facts, touting, as so often, a version of events that suit his own world view to the exclusion of all else. Most of us do that to some extent, but those with a little flexibility in their outlook will take other positions into account.

Thus it is that the USA and the USSR will have very different interpretations of the causes of the Cold War - because naturally they have different perspectives -the origins of which incidentally go as far back as 1918, when the Americans supported an anti-Bolshevik (anti-communist) force to counter the revolution.

The USSR insisted at the end of the war that is had the right to use the 'buffer states' as protection form any future invasion. They were quite understandably, having suffered by far the biggest number of casualties in the war, to be fearful of yet more carnage. It is also worth remembering that the USSR was committed to spreading communism internationally as policy.

American policy was based to a great extent on the ideological view that democracies create peace and stability - and it is easy to forget that the world seethed with civil wars and conflicts even when WW2 was over. But they also saw the USSR as a threat and Truman's 'doctrine' was set out to protect countries like Greece from potential invasion. And of course they wanted to make money. That's what they do right?

It takes two to tango as they say. Paranoia, distrust and fear were large aspects of the build up of tension that ensued. You can blame one side more than the other if you wish, but that misses the point and the reality that the tension existed and the two super powers of the late 20thC were nose to nose for several decades. We call that the old War.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Seabass » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:29 pm

Agreed with all that, Rum. We all have our biases and preconceptions. Fortunately, most of us are open to altering our views when presented with new information or a sound argument. Dutchy's views are so out of wack and so set in stone that it's impossible to take him seriously.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka

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