Only in America

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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Mon May 01, 2017 1:02 pm

If only one, or even better - both, of them had a gun.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 01, 2017 1:15 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Don't be scared. Living in fear of weapons is not generally helpful, and it may be a sign of a serious neurosis or retarded sexual/emotional development.
Like living in fear of situations where you would need a gun.
Having a gun does not mean one lives in fear.
In a lot of cases it probably does. Although, I accept that there are going to be situations where owning a gun in America is a rational idea.
There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds, folks with security concerns like celebrities and controversial figures, and a variety of other situations.
pErvin wrote:
Do any of the gun owners that have posted on this site expressed such fears?
Fuck yeah. Seth is shitting himself about the secret Marxist revolution. You can't seriously argue that that man isn't a scared little boy.
Well, call him one then, if that's what you glean from his writing. He's a bit over the top. There aren't a lot of Seths around.

I've lived in three major metropolitan areas in my life. From personal experience here, encountering guns in daily life is very rare, other than with the police. People generally don't carry them around. We don't have gunfights in the OK corral. The vast majority of gun crime occurs in relation to drug crimes and organized crime, as well as gang violence. 80% of all gun homicides in the US were gang-related. That's according the US CDC, and the stats are from 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf That doesn't make it a nonissue, but the point is that unless one is hanging about gangs, gun violence is extraordinarily low.

Take Bernie Sanders state of Vermont. Gun ownership is high, and gun violence is about as low as in most western European countries (who have very low gun ownership). People aren't shooting each other there. Where are they shooting each other? Compton, certain areas of Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis, etc., that kind of thing. So, for most of the country, there isn't the fear that some of you seem to think exists.

Of course, that's not to say that the violence in these high-crime, high-gang-and-other-criminal-organization areas is not an important issue to resolve in the US. It plainly is. We'd like everywhere in the country to be as safe as Vermont, New Hampshire, and the vast majority of the American land-area.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Mon May 01, 2017 1:26 pm

Forty Two wrote:There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds...
...not to mention police and the defence force.

Still, it's nice to live in a country where a woman could scream "If I had a gun I'd shoot you dead" and laugh at her because there is practically a zero chance that she'd be carrying. Your rambles have yet to address that statement.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 01, 2017 1:37 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds...
...not to mention police and the defence force.
That's not civilian ownership. Soldiers in the military generally don't own their guns, do they?

Hermit wrote: Still, it's nice to live in a country where a woman could scream "If I had a gun I'd shoot you dead" and laugh at her because there is practically a zero chance that she'd be carrying. Your rambles have yet to address that statement.
Was that woman carrying? If she lives in a country where nutters like her carry, then why wouldn't she be carrying?

There's nothing to address here. There is very little chance in the US that any given person is carrying a gun in their bag. In my state, Florida, for example, there is about 5 or 6% of the population that has a concealed carry permit. Not all of those people are going to be regularly carrying. It's just not that common.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Mon May 01, 2017 2:11 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds...
...not to mention police and the defence force.
That's not civilian ownership. Soldiers in the military generally don't own their guns, do they?
Correct on both counts. I was just acknowledging that Australia is by no means a gun-free country.
Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:Still, it's nice to live in a country where a woman could scream "If I had a gun I'd shoot you dead" and laugh at her because there is practically a zero chance that she'd be carrying. Your rambles have yet to address that statement.
There's nothing to address here. There is very little chance in the US that any given person is carrying a gun in their bag. In my state, Florida, for example, there is about 5 or 6% of the population that has a concealed carry permit. Not all of those people are going to be regularly carrying. It's just not that common.
5 or 6% is enough to make the possibility of being killed because someone happens to have a gun at hand a significant one compared to countries where firearm regulations are more restrictive.
Forty Two wrote:If she lives in a country where nutters like her carry, then why wouldn't she be carrying?
Thanks for making Scot Dutchy's point, and mine, though I'm not sure if the solution to your gun problem is more guns.
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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Mon May 01, 2017 2:17 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Don't be scared. Living in fear of weapons is not generally helpful, and it may be a sign of a serious neurosis or retarded sexual/emotional development.
Like living in fear of situations where you would need a gun.
Having a gun does not mean one lives in fear.
In a lot of cases it probably does. Although, I accept that there are going to be situations where owning a gun in America is a rational idea.
There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds,
Please tell us how those are situations where rational fear would cause you to need a gun.
folks with security concerns like celebrities and controversial figures, and a variety of other situations.
That's not "lots of cases in Oz". You basically just made shit up to suit your argument.
I've lived in three major metropolitan areas in my life. From personal experience here, encountering guns in daily life is very rare, other than with the police. People generally don't carry them around. We don't have gunfights in the OK corral. The vast majority of gun crime occurs in relation to drug crimes and organized crime, as well as gang violence. 80% of all gun homicides in the US were gang-related. That's according the US CDC, and the stats are from 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf That doesn't make it a nonissue, but the point is that unless one is hanging about gangs, gun violence is extraordinarily low.
Exactly. Do you think that woman with her concealed guns fits that description?
Take Bernie Sanders state of Vermont. Gun ownership is high, and gun violence is about as low as in most western European countries (who have very low gun ownership). People aren't shooting each other there. Where are they shooting each other? Compton, certain areas of Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis, etc., that kind of thing. So, for most of the country, there isn't the fear that some of you seem to think exists.
You are making my argument for me. Why are people outside of these high crime areas getting concealed (or otherwise) handguns?
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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 01, 2017 2:22 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:There's nothing to address here. There is very little chance in the US that any given person is carrying a gun in their bag. In my state, Florida, for example, there is about 5 or 6% of the population that has a concealed carry permit. Not all of those people are going to be regularly carrying. It's just not that common.
5 or 6% is enough to make the possibility of being killed because someone happens to have a gun at hand a significant one compared to countries where firearm regulations are more restrictive.
Except that the stats show that only about 2200 people out of 330,000,000 people in the US are shot in non-gang-related gun homicides in a year.

The usual figure of gun deaths in a years which here is about 32,000. Of that 60% are suicides and 3% are accidents. That leaves about 11,100 deaths by gun homicide, and the CDC has said that about 80% of those are gang-related.

The lady hollering on the freeway is extremely unlikely to have a gun on her, and even if she does she's extremely unlikely to use it, unless she's in a gang.

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:If she lives in a country where nutters like her carry, then why wouldn't she be carrying?
Thanks for making Scot Dutchy's point, and mine, though I'm not sure if the solution to your gun problem is more guns.
I never said the solution was more guns. The solution is to end the war on drugs, and focus law enforcement and rehabilitative measures on gangs and organized crime to target the vast majority of homicides. Further, intervention and treatment should be targeted at at-risk people and other measures should be taken to reduce the suicide rate. Mandatory gun safety and security measures should also be taken. Other measures can also be taken as well.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon May 01, 2017 2:26 pm

Forty Two wrote:Oh, o.k., then, what was the frightening thought? The gun or the purse?

Also, "don't have any" is a bit of an overstatement, isn't it? Arent' there over half a million civilian guns in the Netherlands, not including police and military? Look around a busy street, and 1 in 25 of your countrymen own firearms.
Where did you extract this bit of misinformation?
Police have been issuing fewer gun licenses in recent years and many are being revoked. In 2013 75,000 licenses were issued; this figure includes new licenses and extensions of sports and game firearm owners. It has dropped by 2,000 over 2011. Police say many applications are being denied - 109 in 2013, 75 in 2011 - and even more are being withdrawn - 230 in 2013, 346 in 2012 and 226 in 2011. The declining gun license figures are linked to a more restrictive policy... (GunPolicy.org)
In other words nowhere near your 1 in 25. 75,000 licences over a population of 17 million. Not many guns as that includes hunting and target weapons locked in rifle clubs.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 01, 2017 2:42 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Like living in fear of situations where you would need a gun.
Having a gun does not mean one lives in fear.
In a lot of cases it probably does. Although, I accept that there are going to be situations where owning a gun in America is a rational idea.
There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds,
Please tell us how those are situations where rational fear would cause you to need a gun.
You didn't say "rational fear," you said a "rational idea." I don't think most people buy guns out of "fear." There is likely some fear where someone may have a concern that another person or persons has some sort of violent intent towards them (maybe a woman with a violent ex or something), and then there are folks that are in high risk groups (celebrities with crazed fans, or perhaps someone who lives in a very dangerous neighborhood).

pErvin wrote:
folks with security concerns like celebrities and controversial figures, and a variety of other situations.
That's not "lots of cases in Oz". You basically just made shit up to suit your argument.
The "lots of cases" was the combination of all the reasons. Any one particular reason may or may not constitute a "lot." However, of all those I listed, I suspect there are lots - a great deal. Australia has about 21 or 22 guns per 100 Ozzies. So, you've gone some guns there. Obviously, those who have them have reasons for having them, except maybe a few who just have them for absolutely no reason. I would suspect, although I cannot prove, that most people would articulate a reason for wanting the gun.
pErvin wrote:
I've lived in three major metropolitan areas in my life. From personal experience here, encountering guns in daily life is very rare, other than with the police. People generally don't carry them around. We don't have gunfights in the OK corral. The vast majority of gun crime occurs in relation to drug crimes and organized crime, as well as gang violence. 80% of all gun homicides in the US were gang-related. That's according the US CDC, and the stats are from 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf That doesn't make it a nonissue, but the point is that unless one is hanging about gangs, gun violence is extraordinarily low.
Exactly. Do you think that woman with her concealed guns fits that description?
Which woman? The one with the purse? I don't know.

Having a purse that holds guns doesn't mean that she's carrying the gun around all the time. It means that when she carries it somewhere, she can use her nice stylish purse to put it in.

pErvin wrote:
Take Bernie Sanders state of Vermont. Gun ownership is high, and gun violence is about as low as in most western European countries (who have very low gun ownership). People aren't shooting each other there. Where are they shooting each other? Compton, certain areas of Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis, etc., that kind of thing. So, for most of the country, there isn't the fear that some of you seem to think exists.
You are making my argument for me. Why are people outside of these high crime areas getting concealed (or otherwise) handguns?
It's not the guns that are "concealed" it's the permits. You want the permit in case you need to carry the gun somewhere. Otherwise, the lady has to wear like a sidearm, in full view, or make sure she leaves it somewhere that's allowed without a CC permit.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 01, 2017 2:48 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Oh, o.k., then, what was the frightening thought? The gun or the purse?

Also, "don't have any" is a bit of an overstatement, isn't it? Arent' there over half a million civilian guns in the Netherlands, not including police and military? Look around a busy street, and 1 in 25 of your countrymen own firearms.
Where did you extract this bit of misinformation?
Police have been issuing fewer gun licenses in recent years and many are being revoked. In 2013 75,000 licenses were issued; this figure includes new licenses and extensions of sports and game firearm owners. It has dropped by 2,000 over 2011. Police say many applications are being denied - 109 in 2013, 75 in 2011 - and even more are being withdrawn - 230 in 2013, 346 in 2012 and 226 in 2011. The declining gun license figures are linked to a more restrictive policy... (GunPolicy.org)
In other words nowhere near your 1 in 25. 75,000 licences over a population of 17 million. Not many guns as that includes hunting and target weapons locked in rifle clubs.
The number of licenses issued in 2013 is only a portion of the total number of licenses out there. I read that there area bout 500 or 600 thousand licensed gun owners in the Netherlands. I'll search for the link if you dispute it. However, I did another quick search and I found an article from 2015 that says there are only about 208,000 licensed gun owners in the Netherlands as of then, and it had been going down over the years. So, I think my 1 in 25 number is likely out of date, as you say, although significantly higher than 75,000. So, I'll withdraw the 1 in 25 comment.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Mon May 01, 2017 2:51 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
Having a gun does not mean one lives in fear.
In a lot of cases it probably does. Although, I accept that there are going to be situations where owning a gun in America is a rational idea.
There are lots of cases in Oz where owning a gun is a rational idea, too. Gun sportsmen, certain Olympic athletes, hunters, farmers, ranchers, herders/shepherds,
Please tell us how those are situations where rational fear would cause you to need a gun.
You didn't say "rational fear," you said a "rational idea."
Oh FFS, this whole tangent is based on the concept of irrational fear (of weapons themselves; and of crime that would require a gun to solve). I absolutely was talking about rational fear.
pErvin wrote:
I've lived in three major metropolitan areas in my life. From personal experience here, encountering guns in daily life is very rare, other than with the police. People generally don't carry them around. We don't have gunfights in the OK corral. The vast majority of gun crime occurs in relation to drug crimes and organized crime, as well as gang violence. 80% of all gun homicides in the US were gang-related. That's according the US CDC, and the stats are from 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf That doesn't make it a nonissue, but the point is that unless one is hanging about gangs, gun violence is extraordinarily low.
Exactly. Do you think that woman with her concealed guns fits that description?
Which woman? The one with the purse? I don't know.
Oh sure. :roll: How about you take a guess? Does she look like a gang banger or an urban slum dweller?
pErvin wrote:
Take Bernie Sanders state of Vermont. Gun ownership is high, and gun violence is about as low as in most western European countries (who have very low gun ownership). People aren't shooting each other there. Where are they shooting each other? Compton, certain areas of Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis, etc., that kind of thing. So, for most of the country, there isn't the fear that some of you seem to think exists.
You are making my argument for me. Why are people outside of these high crime areas getting concealed (or otherwise) handguns?
It's not the guns that are "concealed" it's the permits. You want the permit in case you need to carry the gun somewhere. Otherwise, the lady has to wear like a sidearm, in full view, or make sure she leaves it somewhere that's allowed without a CC permit.
FFS, way to miss the point. It doesn't matter whether they are concealed or not. The point is that people outside of high crime areas are buying guns like the lady has in those videos, for what? If they don't live in high crime areas, why are they buying them? I put it to you that a good chunk of them are irrationally afraid of crime that is unlikely to ever occur.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Mon May 01, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Mon May 01, 2017 3:16 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:There's nothing to address here. There is very little chance in the US that any given person is carrying a gun in their bag. In my state, Florida, for example, there is about 5 or 6% of the population that has a concealed carry permit. Not all of those people are going to be regularly carrying. It's just not that common.
5 or 6% is enough to make the possibility of being killed because someone happens to have a gun at hand a significant one compared to countries where firearm regulations are more restrictive.
Except that the stats show that only about 2200 people out of 330,000,000 people in the US are shot in non-gang-related gun homicides in a year.
Would you not agree that humans (except for you and me, and I have my doubts about you ;-)) are not particularly rational? People who feel the need to protect themselves by owning guns do so mainly because other people own guns. It's a vicious circle. By deciding to protect yourself via carrying a gun, you are enhancing the likelihood that people get killed because someone happens to have a gun at hand.

As for the 80% figure, you are relying on Dana Loesch or some Breitbart type source. It is totally false. For instance, according to a (somewhat dated) Huffpo article the Bureau of Justice Statistics reported that there were a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008, and that number includes homicides by means other than a gun. In the same year the total number of homicides by handgun amounted to 7930 and an additional 2970 people were murdered by the use of other firearms.

But don't let facts stand in the way of your assertions. I for one am getting used to it.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Forty Two » Mon May 01, 2017 3:54 pm

pErvin wrote:
Oh FFS, this whole tangent is based on the concept of irrational fear (of weapons themselves; and of crime that would require a gun to solve). I absolutely was talking about rational fear.
Then you should have used that word. And, I've addressed that.
pErvin wrote:
pErvin wrote:
I've lived in three major metropolitan areas in my life. From personal experience here, encountering guns in daily life is very rare, other than with the police. People generally don't carry them around. We don't have gunfights in the OK corral. The vast majority of gun crime occurs in relation to drug crimes and organized crime, as well as gang violence. 80% of all gun homicides in the US were gang-related. That's according the US CDC, and the stats are from 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf That doesn't make it a nonissue, but the point is that unless one is hanging about gangs, gun violence is extraordinarily low.
Exactly. Do you think that woman with her concealed guns fits that description?
Which woman? The one with the purse? I don't know.
Oh sure. :roll: How about you take a guess? Does she look like a gang banger or an urban slum dweller?
You tell me. What do they look like? If we assume based on her looks that she does not look like a gang banger, then one would conclude that the chance of her having a gun is slim to none.

I did not say slum dweller. You did. I don't think slum dwellers are generally violent. The vast majority of them are kind and peaceful people. The gang bangers are not the same as them.
pErvin wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Take Bernie Sanders state of Vermont. Gun ownership is high, and gun violence is about as low as in most western European countries (who have very low gun ownership). People aren't shooting each other there. Where are they shooting each other? Compton, certain areas of Detroit, Chicago and St. Louis, etc., that kind of thing. So, for most of the country, there isn't the fear that some of you seem to think exists.
You are making my argument for me. Why are people outside of these high crime areas getting concealed (or otherwise) handguns?
It's not the guns that are "concealed" it's the permits. You want the permit in case you need to carry the gun somewhere. Otherwise, the lady has to wear like a sidearm, in full view, or make sure she leaves it somewhere that's allowed without a CC permit.
FFS, way to miss the point. It doesn't matter whether they are concealed or not. The point is that people outside of high crime areas are buying guns like the lady has in those videos, for what? If they don't live in high crime areas, why are they buying them? I put it to you that a good chunk of them are irrationally afraid of crime that is unlikely to ever occur.
For a variety of reasons, many of which I listed above.

You can substantiate your argument that a good chunk of them are irrationally afraid of crime.

That being said, some women will buy guns for home defense or self defense. Since most women gun owners are in rural areas, there are good reasons to have a gun in the house. Police response time can be long in rural areas, because of the distances involved. So, even though crime there would be considered "unlikely," the negative result of such crime is what the likelihood is measured against, giving an expected outcome (statistically speaking). So, women who reside alone may well want some defense options, that kind of thing. Even a small chance of something happening warrants action if the damage to be suffered if that small chance occurs is great. That's the whole concept behind life insurance - a 30 year old mother has virtually no chance of dying in the next 10 years, but she may well choose to buy life insurance to take care of the risk of loss associated with that small chance.

Also, we now have the numbers of women hunters and sports shooters on the rise, so many women gun owners do so for hunting and sporting reasons. That reason may be combined with home defense, etc.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Only in America

Post by JimC » Mon May 01, 2017 9:06 pm

The issue is not guns in general, but hand-guns in particular. Sure, lots of rifles and shotguns in Oz for hunting, and most people are fine with that. What we find amazing in the US is the whole hand-gun culture, weapons with no other purpose than killing other human beings. People buying them because others might have them...

Sure, there are hand guns in use among criminals in Oz, but overwhelmingly they are used to shoot criminal competitors, which is not a huge problem for me...
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pErvinalia
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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Tue May 02, 2017 6:23 am

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Oh FFS, this whole tangent is based on the concept of irrational fear (of weapons themselves; and of crime that would require a gun to solve). I absolutely was talking about rational fear.
Then you should have used that word. And, I've addressed that.
pErvin wrote:
pErvin wrote:
I've lived in three major metropolitan areas in my life. From personal experience here, encountering guns in daily life is very rare, other than with the police. People generally don't carry them around. We don't have gunfights in the OK corral. The vast majority of gun crime occurs in relation to drug crimes and organized crime, as well as gang violence. 80% of all gun homicides in the US were gang-related. That's according the US CDC, and the stats are from 2011. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf That doesn't make it a nonissue, but the point is that unless one is hanging about gangs, gun violence is extraordinarily low.
Exactly. Do you think that woman with her concealed guns fits that description?
Which woman? The one with the purse? I don't know.
Oh sure. :roll: How about you take a guess? Does she look like a gang banger or an urban slum dweller?
You tell me. What do they look like?
FFS, you really are a waste of electrons. I'm not reading past this point.
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