Only in America

Guns don't kill threads; Ratz kill threads!
Post Reply
User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 40340
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Svartalf » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:05 am

Well as for myself, the CUba crisis happened some 5 or 6 years before I was even born... my first political memories of the Cold War were of the Détente and nuclear weapons and missiles limitation treaties being negociated all around...
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:12 am

Svartalf wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:05 am
Well as for myself, the CUba crisis happened some 5 or 6 years before I was even born... my first political memories of the Cold War were of the Détente and nuclear weapons and missiles limitation treaties being negociated all around...
The cold war was not a static situation. The détente and SALT treaties did not make it less serious or less real.

In my view the Cuban crisis was won by the USSR. It promised to not install missiles in Cuba in return for the USA dismantling its already installed missiles in Turkey, coincidentally 150 kilometres from the Russian border.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 40340
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Svartalf » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:14 am

Yeah, the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs failure was really bad for the Kennedy and the Lyndon B Johnson administrations.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Scot Dutchy
Posts: 19000
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm
About me: Dijkbeschermer
Location: 's-Gravenhage, Nederland
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am

How was a phoney war real? Was there fighting? Firing of weapons? Nope. Its soul purpose was alter societies. The Americans were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn. The Soviets were terrified in turn about anything that smelt like socialism.
The existence of MAD was more than enough but both sides went through with the pantomime playing war games while removing governments that did not please them sometimes ending up even losing.

What did it achieve? The mess we have today; a dictator and a lunatic.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

User avatar
Hermit
Posts: 25806
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
About me: Cantankerous grump
Location: Ignore lithpt
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:19 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
How was a phoney war real? Was there fighting? Firing of weapons? Nope.
Nobody claimed a phoney war was a shooting war. Nobody claimed the cold war was a shooting war either.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
Its soul (sic) purpose was alter societies. The Americans were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn (sic). The Soviets were terrified in turn about anything that smelt like socialism.
There is no doubt that "The Americans" were paranoid about any left of Genghis Khan, but the cold war was a contest between two superpowers over who had control of what. Clausewitz defined war as the continuation of politics by other means. The cold war lay somewhere between the two.

You might call the cold war a pantomime because no bullets were fired. It is true that, apart from proxy wars, none were, but the cold war was a serious struggle for power, and an expensive one for both sides. In 1989 the USSR spent approximately 15% of its GDP on its military. In the same year the USA spent slightly less than 6% of its GDP on its military. You might call the cold war a pantomime, but nobody who throws this much money on its military forces would regard it as a pantomime.
Last edited by Hermit on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

User avatar
Scot Dutchy
Posts: 19000
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm
About me: Dijkbeschermer
Location: 's-Gravenhage, Nederland
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:25 am

Hermit wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:19 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
How was a phoney war real? Was there fighting? Firing of weapons? Nope.
Nobody claimed a phoney war was a shooting war. Nobody claimed the cold war was a shooting war either.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
Its soul (sic) purpose was alter societies. The Americans were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn (sic). The Soviets were terrified in turn about anything that smelt like socialism.
There is no doubt that "The Americans" were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn, but the cold war was a contest between two superpowers over who had control of what. Clausewitz defined war as the continuation of politics by other means. The cold war lay somewhere between the two.

You might call the cold war a pantomime because no bullets were fired. It is true that, apart from proxy wars, none were, but the cold war was a serious struggle for power, and an expensive one for both sides. In 1989 the USSR spent approximately 15% of its GDP on its military. In the same year the USA spent slightly less than 6% of its GDP on its military. You might call the cold war a pantomime, but nobody who throws this much money on its military forces would regard it as a pantomime.
All this was done against the MAD scenario so pretty stupid which is why I call it a pantomime and a phoney war. It was generals driving the whole thing and not politicians. It was politicians that ended it but today we have no politicians left just lunatics.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 40340
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Svartalf » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:31 am

As Hermit noted, the MAD scenario did not prevent proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, remember who first armed the Talibans) from taking place and those were truly matches between the two superpowers...
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
Scot Dutchy
Posts: 19000
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm
About me: Dijkbeschermer
Location: 's-Gravenhage, Nederland
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:36 am

Svartalf wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:31 am
As Hermit noted, the MAD scenario did not prevent proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, remember who first armed the Talibans) from taking place and those were truly matches between the two superpowers...
Not exactly. No actual direct conflict. Korea and Vietnam had more to do with China.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

User avatar
Svartalf
Offensive Grail Keeper
Posts: 40340
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:42 pm
Location: Paris France
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Svartalf » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:51 am

an d at the time of the Korean war, China was a Russian vassal state, Mao did not sever the cord before 1961... and I'm not sure whether the Viet communists were Bolsheviks or Maoists, at any rate, the Viet conflict was fought because of a belief for the domino effect, that would eventually have benefitted Russia more than China, since China was still a mostly underdeveloped minor power in spite of its size and population.
Embrace the Darkness, it needs a hug

PC stands for "Patronizing Cocksucker" Randy Ping

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 59297
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:54 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:25 am
Hermit wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:19 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
How was a phoney war real? Was there fighting? Firing of weapons? Nope.
Nobody claimed a phoney war was a shooting war. Nobody claimed the cold war was a shooting war either.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
Its soul (sic) purpose was alter societies. The Americans were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn (sic). The Soviets were terrified in turn about anything that smelt like socialism.
There is no doubt that "The Americans" were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn, but the cold war was a contest between two superpowers over who had control of what. Clausewitz defined war as the continuation of politics by other means. The cold war lay somewhere between the two.

You might call the cold war a pantomime because no bullets were fired. It is true that, apart from proxy wars, none were, but the cold war was a serious struggle for power, and an expensive one for both sides. In 1989 the USSR spent approximately 15% of its GDP on its military. In the same year the USA spent slightly less than 6% of its GDP on its military. You might call the cold war a pantomime, but nobody who throws this much money on its military forces would regard it as a pantomime.
All this was done against the MAD scenario so pretty stupid which is why I call it a pantomime and a phoney war.
So your argument is because it was stupid it must have been phoney? Umm ok...
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
Scot Dutchy
Posts: 19000
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:07 pm
About me: Dijkbeschermer
Location: 's-Gravenhage, Nederland
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:36 am

A bit pointless wasting all that time and money. Who would ever press the button even today? It makes nonsense of the UK subs as well.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 37956
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:21 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
How was a phoney war real? Was there fighting? Firing of weapons? Nope. Its soul purpose was alter societies. The Americans were paranoid about any left of Genghis Kahn. The Soviets were terrified in turn about anything that smelt like socialism.
The existence of MAD was more than enough but both sides went through with the pantomime playing war games while removing governments that did not please them sometimes ending up even losing.

What did it achieve? The mess we have today; a dictator and a lunatic.
There were many skirmishes, proxy wars, and militarily supported surrogate regimes, but no, the Big Two didn't go head-to-head.

So, you're quibbling about the legitimacy of calling the Cold War a 'war'. Well, we could call it a protracted diplomatic conflict if you like, but it wouldn't change history. You're also quibbling about the legitimacy of the West and USSR's demarcation of each other as 'the enemy'. Yet we all know how transient political imperatives fuel this kind of characterisation, and that in itself doesn't change history either. You're disputing the legitimacy of NATO as a military organisation devised and designed to oppose a bogeyman enemy. I might agree and say that making enemies of a whole people in the mind of a population to drive economies and further the ambition of small-minded political aspirants is a shameful example of mass sociopathy bordering on the psychopathic, but denouncing that attitude doesn't change the fact that its a dominant factor in world politics at the moment.

Nonetheless, defence co-operation between friendly -- and sometimes not quite so friendly -- nations is still a good idea. It promotes and normalises peaceful co-operation between states, even if much of its impetus is rooted in political posturing, and encourages populations to acknowledge their commonalities and see each other as friends, not enemies. Germany, France, Spain, and Holland have all been the enemies of Britain at some point in history. Pick any nation in Europe and you'll find a history of neighbourly conflict. That NATO represents a military alliance is not in doubt, but because out of those presumed defence imperatives it has also come to represents a political and social alliance too. Admittedly the US is a bit of an outlier -- militarily, economically, and geographically -- but pooling defence resources and responsibilities, or burden-sharing as it's called, is good for all participant nations as it reduces spending on hardware and allows greater investment in other areas, in skills and practice.

Ultimately I'd like to see NATO developing along the lines of the Japanese military - a very well trained, well armed force with a non-aggression, protection-only remit that's able to service and fulfil certain social and infrastructure needs at home as well as abroad.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Rum
Absent Minded Processor
Posts: 37285
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: South of the border..though not down Mexico way..
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Rum » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:39 pm

It was called a 'cold' war because it was too dangerous to make it a hot one. MAD ensured if it got hot the world could quite easily have been left with pretty much no people.

The protrated confrontation, whatever you want to call it was a real thing - a real series of events, crises, proxy wars, diplomatic and political coups - a huge giant game of chess seen by many as a struggle between democracy and totalitarianism and others still as just two bully boys slugging it out.

I was around 9 or 10 at the time of the Cuban missile crisis and I was terrified. I can remember wondering why school was open that day if the bombs were going to fall. And after that for the best part of two decades my generation and others lived in fear than any proxy war - most typically ones involving the middle east, would get out of hand and the superpowers would start shooting at each other. 'Nuclear neurosis' it was sometimes termed - a constant and real reality based paranoia that the world could end with a bang any day and time and without warning.

So don't tel me that the Cold War wasn't real. It was fuckign terrifyingly real.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 37956
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:43 pm

Rum wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:39 pm
I was around 9 or 10 at the time of the Cuban missile crisis and I was terrified.
I was the same during the Mau Mau uprising. :tea:
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
Rum
Absent Minded Processor
Posts: 37285
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: South of the border..though not down Mexico way..
Contact:

Re: Only in America

Post by Rum » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:46 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:43 pm
Rum wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:39 pm
I was around 9 or 10 at the time of the Cuban missile crisis and I was terrified.
I was the same during the Mau Mau uprising. :tea:
You were a colonial lad too then?

I've checked the date - I was just 12 - still in junior school as I recall..

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests