Only in America

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pErvinalia
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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:07 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:04 pm
11 counts including anal rape. Though I tend to think of it as violence regardless.
You and the right are basically poisoning the well by bringing this point up. That he was a kiddy fiddler is wholly irrelevant to the issue of Rittenhouse's guilt or justifications for shooting him.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:19 pm

Rittenhouse is guilty because he took the law into his own hands and people lost their lives.

--//--

Now, can we address the issue of how badly this situation has been framed or not?

I suspect not given that even the violent history of the victims is off limits.

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Re: Only in America

Post by laklak » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:17 pm

11 counts? Look, I can see shooting the pervert if he'd had 12 previous counts, but only 11? Come on, give the guy a chance.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Svartalf » Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:23 pm

laklak wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 2:17 pm
11 counts? Look, I can see shooting the pervert if he'd had 12 previous counts, but only 11? Come on, give the guy a chance.
That's riught, at 11 counts of sex related violent crime, you don't yet inject them, you just cut their things off without benefit of anesthetics, and if they do anything bad after that, you put them as the criminal in a film about China defpicting the death of 999 cuts, without benefit of any special effects or simulation.
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Re: Only in America

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:25 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:19 pm
Now, can we address the issue of how badly this situation has been framed or not?

I suspect not given that even the violent history of the victims is off limits.
We were discussing how it's been framed by you and the right.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:27 pm

If you don't see how the facts in the case contradict the popular framing of what happened then maybe you're not familiar with how it was framed. I will just point out that nearly everyone has changed their understanding as they become acquainted with the facts.

The right thinks he's innocent. I've never held that position.

What's with you types that need to dismiss everyone as right or left? What I've said stands on its own and can be accepted or not regardless of political leanings.

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Re: Only in America

Post by JimC » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:04 am

Sean, I don't think its a left vs right issue. You accept that he did the wrong thing, but seem to suggest that previous criminal behaviour of one of his victims somehow mitigates his crime. I can't see that being relevant to his actions at all...
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:32 am

What?

The prior violent criminal behavior better explains what happened that night.

Here: BLM protest so bothered a young white supremacist that he crossed state lines looking to shoot people and unsurprisingly succeeded.

That has been the framing, and it's total horseshit.

A young man who saw the riots as destructive, took it upon himself to intervene in his own community --to act as the law-- and was attacked.

Why?

That's a more accurate portrayal. Understanding the violent past of the victims helps picture why they were involved and why things went down as they did.

--//--


There's more of course, but jesus, honestly man.

You know, I like to think of the poor BLM protesters having to put up with dumbass white wannabe revolutionaries --remember that, how they pleaded with those type of idiots to leave [?]-- that's who these victims were.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:57 am

I wonder if our disagreement stems from a need for things to be logically consistent, neat and tidy? But reality isn't.

Rittenhouse acted in self-defense and he's guilty.

That's reality, messy as hell.

I guess a smart enough lawyer could attempt to get around it as rEv did initially by assuming we just need another concept to cover this particular issue, a new law and presto, one is either guilty or innocent again and all is well... :hehe:

Me, I wanna play devil --yeah, you acted in self-defense, and? --machismo-- :biggrin:

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:24 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 12:57 am
I wonder if our disagreement stems from a need for things to be logically consistent, neat and tidy? But reality isn't.

Rittenhouse acted in self-defense and he's guilty.

That's reality, messy as hell.

I guess a smart enough lawyer could attempt to get around it as rEv did initially by assuming we just need another concept to cover this particular issue, a new law and presto, one is either guilty or innocent again and all is well... :hehe:

Me, I wanna play devil --yeah, you acted in self-defense, and? --machismo-- :biggrin:
You don't need another law. Just disqualify the "stand your ground" law from being applicable when being chased by someone with a plastic shopping bag or a skateboard.
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:38 am

No one was shot while chasing Rittenhouse with a bag or skateboard.

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Re: Only in America

Post by Hermit » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:51 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:38 am
No one was shot while chasing Rittenhouse with a bag or skateboard.
Video footage showed Rittenhouse being pursued across a parking lot by a group of people. Rosenbaum threw a plastic bag containing socks, underwear, and deodorant at Rittenhouse. A bystander named Joshua Ziminski fired a shot into the air, and then Rittenhouse stopped running and turned towards the sound of the shot. Rittenhouse testified at trial that prior to being chased by Rosenbaum, he heard another man tell Rosenbaum to "get him and kill him," but also knew that Rosenbaum was unarmed. Rittenhouse testified that he aimed his gun at Rosenbaum to deter him from pursuing him further.

Witnesses for the prosecution testified at trial that Rosenbaum engaged Rittenhouse and tried to take his rifle from him. At 11:48 pm, Rittenhouse then fired four rounds at Rosenbaum, hitting his groin, back and left hand. The bullets perforated Rosenbaum's heart, aorta, pulmonary artery and right lung, fractured his pelvis, and caused minor wounds to his left thigh and forehead.
[...]
Anthony Huber, made contact with Rittenhouse's left shoulder with a skateboard as the pair struggled for control of the gun. As Huber was pulling on the rifle, Rittenhouse fired once, hitting Huber in the chest, perforating his heart and right lung, causing his rapid death.
Link

So, three weapons were involved:
a) A plastic bag containing socks, underwear, and deodorant
b) A skateboard
c) A Smith & Wesson AR-15 style .223 rifle with a magazine holding 30 rounds
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:20 am

So no one was shot while chasing Rittenhouse with a bag or skateboard. What actually happened was that the first victim chased Rittenhouse and was only shot after he attempted to take his gun. The second victim also went for the gun after swinging his skateboard at Rittenhouse while Rittenhouse laid on the ground.

Both victims attempted to take the gun.

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Re: Only in America

Post by JimC » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:29 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:20 am
So no one was shot while chasing Rittenhouse with a bag or skateboard. What actually happened was that the first victim chased Rittenhouse and was only shot after he attempted to take his gun. The second victim also went for the gun after swinging his skateboard at Rittenhouse while Rittenhouse laid on the ground.

Both victims attempted to take the gun.
Attempting to take the gun could well be viewed as a heroic act by someone trying to disarm a dangerous armed lunatic...
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Re: Only in America

Post by Sean Hayden » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:34 am

This is why it's important to understand the actors involved and what they were doing so you can avoid such grotesque misrepresentations.

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