100 homicidal home invasions

[JimC]

The vast majority of other current civilised nationa don't have your precious 2nd Amendment, but their potential descent into despotism is held at bay by a wide range of other checks and balances. No need for paranoid, wild-eyed lunatics feverishly clutching guns in the rest of the developed world...

[Blind groper]

I was browsing the internet a while back, and I came across an interesting statement by one of Seth's heroes, Gary Kleck.

Seth has repeatedly made the suggestion that guns in the hands of the law abiding is OK, and only guns in the hands of criminals is a problem. Now, defining 'criminal' could be an issue, so let me suggest a definition. A criminal is a person who has been found guilty of a crime.

Gary Kleck said that only 25% of murders were carried out by someone who had previously been so convicted. That implies that 75% of all murders are carried out by people who have not been convicted.

If so, then the restrictions on selling guns to 'criminals' is kinda pointless.

Of course, that 75% of murderers who have not been previously convicted are probably not "nice" people. They may be violent, or have terrible tempers, or become nasty drunks, or beat their wives, or any of a thousand other nastinesses. However, they are not criminals.

So permitting guns into the hands of those who are described as "law-abiding" is no protection. They also become gun murderers.

[Tero]

The guns don't commit crimes is valid mostly in murder of the spouse. Nothing stops you from beating the spouse to death with a crow bar or baseball bat while they sleep.

With bosses, friends, other innet circle, you conront them, say what you came to say. "You ruined my life." Then you shoot them.

So of that 75%, maybe half is controllable by gun limits.

[Seth]

The vast majority of other current civilised nationa don't have your precious 2nd Amendment,

No, they don't, but they should because many of them have in the past relied upon it for their own defense and survival, as in WWI and WWII.

but their potential descent into despotism is held at bay by a wide range of other checks and balances. No need for paranoid, wild-eyed lunatics feverishly clutching guns in the rest of the developed world...

Said the white farmers of Rhodesia...who are now dead and/or dispossessed of everything they own by the genocidal and tyrannical despot Robert Mugabwe.

Said the citizens of Cuba who were disappeared into shallow graves in banana plantations by Che Guevara.

Said the Chinese peasants who were murdered wholesale by Chairman Mao for resisting his cultural revolution.

Said the Russians marched off to the gulags of Siberia by Stalin to die and be buried in the roadbed of the Road of Bones.

Said the 12 million people of Ukraine starved to death by Stalin in the Holomodor.

Said the doctors, lawyers, teachers and others whose bones line in the killing fields of Cambodia, murdered by Pol Pot and his henchmen.

Said the Jews of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the Roma of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the homosexuals of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the peasants murdered by the Shining Path in Bolivia and Peru.

Said the people of Mexico buried in mass graves, murdered by narcoterrorists.

Said the people of Iran tortured and murdered by Saddam Hussein.

Said the hundreds of teenage and younger girls tortured, raped and murdered by Saddam's sons.

Said the thousands of homosexuals and infidels being hung, burned, stoned and thrown off tall buildings by the mullahs of Iraq today.

Said the hundreds of girls kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery by Boko Haram in Africa.

The list goes on and on and on, and it just keeps getting longer because people like you simply don't understand human nature or history.

The right to keep and bear arms, and the fact that we do so religiously, is what keeps such things from happening in the US.

And that mitigates any negative consequences of being an armed citizenry. We accept that gun crime is going to happen anyway but that the evil of a disarmed populace is so much greater and the potential for death so much higher that we choose to fight gun crime in ways other than by confiscating the guns of law abiding citizens who do not pose a risk to the public.

[Seth]

I was browsing the internet a while back, and I came across an interesting statement by one of Seth's heroes, Gary Kleck.

Seth has repeatedly made the suggestion that guns in the hands of the law abiding is OK, and only guns in the hands of criminals is a problem. Now, defining 'criminal' could be an issue, so let me suggest a definition. A criminal is a person who has been found guilty of a crime.

Gary Kleck said that only 25% of murders were carried out by someone who had previously been so convicted. That implies that 75% of all murders are carried out by people who have not been convicted.

If so, then the restrictions on selling guns to 'criminals' is kinda pointless.

Of course, that 75% of murderers who have not been previously convicted are probably not "nice" people. They may be violent, or have terrible tempers, or become nasty drunks, or beat their wives, or any of a thousand other nastinesses. However, they are not criminals.

So permitting guns into the hands of those who are described as "law-abiding" is no protection. They also become gun murderers.

The reason you're wrong is because you misinterpret the meaning of "convicted" and then try to improperly conflate "not-convicted" with "law abiding." The two things are not in any way equivalent.

He's right in saying that only 25% of murders were carried out by someone previously convicted of a crime. But what you forget is that in most cases, for every conviction there are dozens or hundreds of crime that go unsolved and therefore no one is convicted. This does not mean that those using guns for criminal purposes are not criminals. It means that many criminals go uncaught, and that when we catch and convict criminals, relatively few of them return to committing crimes.

Most murders are committed by criminals who have not yet been convicted of a crime and imprisoned as a result. This largely consists of young black males in urban areas who are part of criminal gangs. There's a never-ending supply of minority youth to be recruited by criminal gangs and used as tools to commit murder precisely because they are both minors and have never been convicted of a crime and are therefore not known to law enforcement. But that doesn't mean they are "law abiding" gun-owning citizens who "become gun murderers." They are criminals from the get-go because they become criminals the first time they touch a gun with the intent to use it in a crime, which is a crime in and of itself. They never legally owned or possessed a gun in the first place, being minors, much less did they apply for or receive a CCW permit and legally purchase a firearm, which is the category of "law abiding citizens" we are discussing.

Kleck, you see, wasn't talking about gun control, he was talking about criminal control and the benefits of vigorous law enforcement and prosecution of existing gun laws and jailing first-time offenders so as to get them out of the criminal population as quickly as possible by showing them the error of their ways BEFORE they become murderers.

[Seth]

The guns don't commit crimes is valid mostly in murder of the spouse.

Guns never commit crimes. They are inanimate objects with no will or intention or capacity to do anything unless operated by a human being...or occasionally an animal by accident.

Nothing stops you from beating the spouse to death with a crow bar or baseball bat while they sleep.

Unless your spouse wakes up, grabs her gun and shoots you dead. But generally speaking domestic violence murders occur during a domestic violence episode, not as cold, calculated and planned homicide. Not that such things don't happen, they certainly do, but even in such a case, if the victim is armed she stands a much better chance of surviving a murder attempt by anyone, including her spouse. Which is why domestic abusers go to great pains to make sure that their bullied spouses never have access to guns.

With bosses, friends, other innet circle, you conront them, say what you came to say. "You ruined my life." Then you shoot them.

Mostly former employees don't say anything, they just start shooting. But in any event that is a compelling argument for firearms in the workplace in the hands of potential victims, which in the past has proven effective at stopping and/or minimizing injury and death before the police are even notified.

So of that 75%, maybe half is controllable by gun limits.

No, zero percent is controllable by "gun limits." If the angry former employee can't get a gun, he can get a bottle of gasoline and a match, or a bottle of acid, or any other weapon with which to kill people and the result of disarming those victims is that nobody but the murderer is armed.

Massacres have been thwarted by armed citizens. One example is Pearl, Mississippi, where the vice-principle of the school, Joel Myrick, retrieved his pistol from his car and held the shooter at gunpoint till the police arrived, thwarting the shooter's plan to go to another school and kill more children.

[Seth]

Obama-Nominated Judge Gives One Year Probation to Straw Purchaser Who Bought Gun for Cop Killer
3
Slain Omaha Police Officer NBC News

by AWR Hawkins5 Nov 20150
On November 2 Obama-nominated U.S. District Judge Eleanor L. Ross gave one year probation to a woman who admitted buying a gun for her boyfriend, which he later used to shoot and kill Omaha Police Officer Kerrie Orozco.

The woman–Jalita Johnson–pleaded “guilty to providing false information to a federally licensed firearms dealer” in order to buy a guy for Marcus Wheeler, “a felon [who] gave Johnson money and told her what [gun] to buy.”

According to Omaha.com, Johnson took Wheeler’s money and “bought [a] Glock semi-automatic handgun, plus a 50-round drum magazine and ammunition, from a pawnshop in Jonesboro, Georgia.” On ATF form 4473 she answered “Yes” when asked if she was the actual buyer of the gun. She then gave the gun to Wheeler and, on May 20, he used to it to open fire on officers trying to arrest him. He fired nine rounds, one of which proved fatal for Orozco. Wheeler was then killed “when Sgt. Jeff Kopietz returned fire.”

In addition to the one year of probation, Judge Ross gave Johnson “40 hours of community service and 180 days of house arrest,” but that’s it. Omaha’s police union and chief of police both spoke out against the light sentence.

Breitbart News previously reported that gun crime prosecutions under Obama have never risen to the levels seen during George W. Bush’s last five years in office. For example, Syracuse University’s TRAC Reports project shows that gun crime prosecutions in 2015 represent a 15.5 percent drop in prosecutions from five years ago and a 34.8 percent drop from the midway point of Bush’s eight years in office.

Now we have an individual who admitted giving false answers on background check papers in order to buy a gun for someone who could not buy one for himself. That gun was then used to kill a police officer, yet the straw buyer’s punishment was only 40 hours of community service, 180 days of house arrest, and one year of probation.

Follow AWR Hawkins on Twitter: @AWRHawkins. Reach him directly at awrhawkins@breitbart.com.

[JimC]

The vast majority of other current civilised nationa don't have your precious 2nd Amendment,

No, they don't, but they should because many of them have in the past relied upon it for their own defense and survival, as in WWI and WWII.

but their potential descent into despotism is held at bay by a wide range of other checks and balances. No need for paranoid, wild-eyed lunatics feverishly clutching guns in the rest of the developed world...

Said the white farmers of Rhodesia...who are now dead and/or dispossessed of everything they own by the genocidal and tyrannical despot Robert Mugabwe.

Said the citizens of Cuba who were disappeared into shallow graves in banana plantations by Che Guevara.

Said the Chinese peasants who were murdered wholesale by Chairman Mao for resisting his cultural revolution.

Said the Russians marched off to the gulags of Siberia by Stalin to die and be buried in the roadbed of the Road of Bones.

Said the 12 million people of Ukraine starved to death by Stalin in the Holomodor.

Said the doctors, lawyers, teachers and others whose bones line in the killing fields of Cambodia, murdered by Pol Pot and his henchmen.

Said the Jews of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the Roma of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the homosexuals of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the peasants murdered by the Shining Path in Bolivia and Peru.

Said the people of Mexico buried in mass graves, murdered by narcoterrorists.

Said the people of Iran tortured and murdered by Saddam Hussein.

Said the hundreds of teenage and younger girls tortured, raped and murdered by Saddam's sons.

Said the thousands of homosexuals and infidels being hung, burned, stoned and thrown off tall buildings by the mullahs of Iraq today.

Said the hundreds of girls kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery by Boko Haram in Africa.

The list goes on and on and on, and it just keeps getting longer because people like you simply don't understand human nature or history.

The right to keep and bear arms, and the fact that we do so religiously, is what keeps such things from happening in the US.

And that mitigates any negative consequences of being an armed citizenry. We accept that gun crime is going to happen anyway but that the evil of a disarmed populace is so much greater and the potential for death so much higher that we choose to fight gun crime in ways other than by confiscating the guns of law abiding citizens who do not pose a risk to the public.

Most of your examples are not modern-day western democracies. Lets compare apples with apples...

[Blind groper]

Jim is correct. Only one of the 25 or so western developed nations has lax gun control, and all the others remain free, without any attempt at totalitarian take over. Guns in civilian hands, and especially hand guns, are not needed.

Beside which, most of the examples Seth came up with for government atrocities would not have been stopped by civilians with guns, for the simple reason that those civilians were complicit in the evil acts. Like in China under Mao. The civilians were doing their best to comply with all Mao's evil and misguided orders.

On the business of only 25% of murderers having convictions.
Yes, some of the others may have committed crimes and not been caught. But not many. How many might have committed a previous murder and not been caught? In the USA the clearance rate for murder is 70%, so that is not many. The clearance rate for other crimes is lower, but since most criminals commit many such crimes, most of them will eventually get caught.

Anyway, the point is that 75% of murderers have a clean record and can buy guns. The only way to stop murderers from getting guns is to restrict gun ownership across the whole population. This is done in most of the western developed nations, and the end result is very few gun murders compared to the lax USA.

[Tero]

Massacres have been thwarted by armed citizens. One example is Pearl, Mississippi, where the vice-principle of the school, Joel Myrick, retrieved his pistol from his car and held the shooter at gunpoint till the police arrived, thwarting the shooter's plan to go to another school and kill more children.

He shouldn't really have to bring a gun to work. He should just hire some security trained in the gun business.

[Seth]

The vast majority of other current civilised nationa don't have your precious 2nd Amendment,

No, they don't, but they should because many of them have in the past relied upon it for their own defense and survival, as in WWI and WWII.

but their potential descent into despotism is held at bay by a wide range of other checks and balances. No need for paranoid, wild-eyed lunatics feverishly clutching guns in the rest of the developed world...

Said the white farmers of Rhodesia...who are now dead and/or dispossessed of everything they own by the genocidal and tyrannical despot Robert Mugabwe.

Said the citizens of Cuba who were disappeared into shallow graves in banana plantations by Che Guevara.

Said the Chinese peasants who were murdered wholesale by Chairman Mao for resisting his cultural revolution.

Said the Russians marched off to the gulags of Siberia by Stalin to die and be buried in the roadbed of the Road of Bones.

Said the 12 million people of Ukraine starved to death by Stalin in the Holomodor.

Said the doctors, lawyers, teachers and others whose bones line in the killing fields of Cambodia, murdered by Pol Pot and his henchmen.

Said the Jews of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the Roma of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the homosexuals of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the peasants murdered by the Shining Path in Bolivia and Peru.

Said the people of Mexico buried in mass graves, murdered by narcoterrorists.

Said the people of Iran tortured and murdered by Saddam Hussein.

Said the hundreds of teenage and younger girls tortured, raped and murdered by Saddam's sons.

Said the thousands of homosexuals and infidels being hung, burned, stoned and thrown off tall buildings by the mullahs of Iraq today.

Said the hundreds of girls kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery by Boko Haram in Africa.

The list goes on and on and on, and it just keeps getting longer because people like you simply don't understand human nature or history.

The right to keep and bear arms, and the fact that we do so religiously, is what keeps such things from happening in the US.

And that mitigates any negative consequences of being an armed citizenry. We accept that gun crime is going to happen anyway but that the evil of a disarmed populace is so much greater and the potential for death so much higher that we choose to fight gun crime in ways other than by confiscating the guns of law abiding citizens who do not pose a risk to the public.

Most of your examples are not modern-day western democracies. Lets compare apples with apples...

Lame attempt at cherry picking. You've taken a page from BG's propaganda. The need for the people of ANY nation, and indeed EVERY nation to be individually armed for the protection of themselves, their communities and their nations is shown by the abuses perpetrated by despots and tyrants and it doesn't matter whether they are "modern-day western democracies" or not, as WWII Weimar Germany demonstrates...not to mention Rhodesia and others, which started out as "democracies" of one sort or another and were turned to murderous despotism by tyrants and political manipulation, which is something that can happen to any nation at any time.

Just look at Europe today. It's being flooded by hundreds of thousands of Islamists. Do you think these Islamists will simply acculturate and give up Islam upon taking up residence in, oh, let's say, Denmark or Sweden?

Soon enough the Islamic Diaspora will begin bearing it's entirely intended fruit, which is the Islamization of Europe through the creeping cancer that is Islam. And then, when the Islamists think they have enough power, they will take over government and impose Sharia law and make all non-Muslims into Kuffar, if they don't simply kill them, and they will declare the World Caliphate.

And Europeans will just die and be subjugated in droves because they have neither the political will to recognize when they are being invaded by a culture entirely hostile to their own "democratic" ideals, nor do they have the personal arms with which to mount an armed overthrow of the now-Muslim-dominated government.

Don't say it can't happen because it can, and if you are too fucking stupid to understand that you deserve to be a slave to your Islamic masters.

[Seth]

Jim is correct. Only one of the 25 or so western developed nations has lax gun control, and all the others remain free, without any attempt at totalitarian take over. Guns in civilian hands, and especially hand guns, are not needed.

Until they are, in which case it's too late to go looking for them, as the UK discovered in 1939.

[Blind groper]

The "islamisation" of Europe.

What a load of crock. Clear to see that Seth has no grasp of numbers. Germany, for example, has a population of 82 million. If every refugee ended up in Germany, they would still be less than 0.5% of the population.

[Hermit]

The vast majority of other current civilised nationa don't have your precious 2nd Amendment,

No, they don't, but they should because many of them have in the past relied upon it for their own defense and survival, as in WWI and WWII.

but their potential descent into despotism is held at bay by a wide range of other checks and balances. No need for paranoid, wild-eyed lunatics feverishly clutching guns in the rest of the developed world...

Said the white farmers of Rhodesia...who are now dead and/or dispossessed of everything they own by the genocidal and tyrannical despot Robert Mugabwe.

Said the citizens of Cuba who were disappeared into shallow graves in banana plantations by Che Guevara.

Said the Chinese peasants who were murdered wholesale by Chairman Mao for resisting his cultural revolution.

Said the Russians marched off to the gulags of Siberia by Stalin to die and be buried in the roadbed of the Road of Bones.

Said the 12 million people of Ukraine starved to death by Stalin in the Holomodor.

Said the doctors, lawyers, teachers and others whose bones line in the killing fields of Cambodia, murdered by Pol Pot and his henchmen.

Said the Jews of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the Roma of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the homosexuals of Europe murdered by Hitler.

Said the peasants murdered by the Shining Path in Bolivia and Peru.

Said the people of Mexico buried in mass graves, murdered by narcoterrorists.

Said the people of Iran tortured and murdered by Saddam Hussein.

Said the hundreds of teenage and younger girls tortured, raped and murdered by Saddam's sons.

Said the thousands of homosexuals and infidels being hung, burned, stoned and thrown off tall buildings by the mullahs of Iraq today.

Said the hundreds of girls kidnapped and forced into sexual slavery by Boko Haram in Africa.

The list goes on and on and on, and it just keeps getting longer because people like you simply don't understand human nature or history.

The right to keep and bear arms, and the fact that we do so religiously, is what keeps such things from happening in the US.

And that mitigates any negative consequences of being an armed citizenry. We accept that gun crime is going to happen anyway but that the evil of a disarmed populace is so much greater and the potential for death so much higher that we choose to fight gun crime in ways other than by confiscating the guns of law abiding citizens who do not pose a risk to the public.

Most of your examples are not modern-day western democracies. Lets compare apples with apples...

Furthermore, the issue of a well regulated militia is very much a two-edged sword. Horrible dictators like Lenin, Mao, Hitler, Castro and so on overthrew legitimate governments precisely because they had very well regulated militia at their disposal.

[Seth]

The "islamisation" of Europe.

What a load of crock. Clear to see that Seth has no grasp of numbers. Germany, for example, has a population of 82 million. If every refugee ended up in Germany, they would still be less than 0.5% of the population.

Right now. Wait a few generations. The Islamic World Caliphate plays the long game.