Another shot at the case against gnus

[Hermit]

Cue the usual "that's not what typically happens" response.

There's 298 million other people who didn't do something stupid with a gun, so I don't see this as a problem that requires all the hysterical response from hoplophobes.

LOL. Thought so.

I suppose we may as well get rid of those oppressive speed limits. Most car drivers never kill or injure anyone. Why should they be required to slow down to 60, 40, 25 km/h when they are competent enough to successfully navigate their vehicle past entrances to schools at a 100 km/h or whatever speed they feel they can do it safely?

[Seth]

But you need a car to get to work. So I need to tolerate idiot drivers. Unless you want socialism with buses and subways. You don't need your gun to get to work.

Depends on where I live. And I may well need my gun to get to work, or anywhere at all, because without it I'm relatively helpless to defend myself against an attacker who is trying to take my life. The fact that YOU think this to be an unlikely event is utterly irrelevant, as is my judgment that you don't "need" a car to get to work, you could walk to work or take the bus or train, but you don't want to.

Well, I don't want to walk around in public without a gun, which means it's just tough titty for hoplophobes because my government says I can do so whenever I want.

[Seth]

Cue the usual "that's not what typically happens" response.

There's 298 million other people who didn't do something stupid with a gun, so I don't see this as a problem that requires all the hysterical response from hoplophobes.

LOL. Thought so.

I suppose we may as well get rid of those oppressive speed limits. Most car drivers never kill or injure anyone. Why should they be required to slow down to 60, 40, 25 km/h when they are competent enough to successfully navigate their vehicle past entrances to schools at a 100 km/h or whatever speed they feel they can do it safely?

Now compare the number of firearms accidents in the US each year with the number of automobile accidents. You will find that it's much, much safer to own a gun than it is to drive a car.

[Tero]

American homes are so cheaply made that nobody in an apartment should be allowed to have a loaded gun. If they are in danger on the street, they can load it there.

A 10-year-old girl was struck by a bullet in the leg while she was playing inside a Gresham apartment at about 9 AM Saturday, Gresham police said. Police first received a call that shots had been fired near Southeast 190th Avenue and Southeast Yamhill Street. Police said within a few seconds another caller reported that a girl in a nearby apartment had been hit by a bullet that came through the wall. Several apartments at the Raintree apartment complex at 878 S.E. 187th Avenue were damaged. The girl was rushed to Legacy Emanuel Medical Center. Police said her injuries do not appear to be life-threatening. Police don't think the shooter intended to hit the girl. The suspect is a man wearing dark clothing who was last seen running east from Southeast 190th Avenue and Yamhill street, police said. Gresham Police detectives, crime scene technicians, a canine team and gang team officers are investigating.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/1 ... AIL-LXXXII#

[Seth]

American homes are so cheaply made that nobody in an apartment should be allowed to have a loaded gun. If they are in danger on the street, they can load it there.

A 10-year-old girl was struck by a bullet in the leg while she was playing inside a Gresham apartment at about 9 AM Saturday, Gresham police said. Police first received a call that shots had been fired near Southeast 190th Avenue and Southeast Yamhill Street. Police said within a few seconds another caller reported that a girl in a nearby apartment had been hit by a bullet that came through the wall. Several apartments at the Raintree apartment complex at 878 S.E. 187th Avenue were damaged. The girl was rushed to Legacy Emanuel Medical Center. Police said her injuries do not appear to be life-threatening. Police don't think the shooter intended to hit the girl. The suspect is a man wearing dark clothing who was last seen running east from Southeast 190th Avenue and Yamhill street, police said. Gresham Police detectives, crime scene technicians, a canine team and gang team officers are investigating.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/1 ... AIL-LXXXII#

Er, the shot was fired by an unknown person outside the apartment building.

However, your point has some validity to it. Apartment dwellers who have firearms must make sure that they are using them properly and have the proper ammunition for such places. This is why a shotgun loaded with bird shot is a good option for apartment dwellers. A column of birdshot doesn't begin to disperse much at typical apartment distances and it can be instantly lethal while still not carrying enough mass per pellet to penetrate your typical party wall between apartments at close range an highly painful and distracting, but much less lethal, at longer ranges where the shot column has dispersed. Beyond about three yards birdshot will generally not penetrate a double layer of standard 5/8" sheet rock.

Most handgun rounds and almost all rifle rounds pose a risk of over-penetratration in such a scenario, which is why defensive rounds for apartment dwellers should specifically be "frangible" rounds. These projectiles are made of sintered bronze, which is to say bronze powder that has been formed into a projectile using a high-pressure hydraulic press. These bullets disintegrate upon impacting any hard object while retaining sufficient integrity to produce a stopping (lethal) wound in the human body. These are the projectiles used by Air Marshals because they will not penetrate the fuselage of a commercial airliner.

There are frangible rifle rounds available in several calibers, including 5.56mm, used in the most popular sporting rifle in the world, the AR-15 style semi-automatic rifle.

My "house rifle" is pre-loaded with a 20 round mag with frangible projectiles because even though I live in a house, a standard military ball round, especially a steel-core "green tip" SS109/M855 rounds, which have part steel, part lead core for enhanced penetration, can potentially leave the property with sufficient velocity to kill if fired through a window. The in-the-well mag therefore contains frangibles and the reserve mag in the weapon-mounted mag carrier contains mil spec SS109/M855 rounds for use on targets that may require better penetration if the frangibles don't do the job.

Handgun rounds are the same for all handguns, which are all loaded with Hornady Critical Defense ammunition with their patented FTX projectiles. Frangibles are available for .45 ACP handguns, but because of the lower velocities they are not as suitable as defensive projectiles as the FTX rounds in my particular situation. An apartment dweller should definitely be using frangibles, but should probably have a separate handgun of the same make and model for the home pre-loaded with frangibles and a carry gun containing a high-quality defensive round.

With proper training and by adhering to the standard rules of gun safety armed apartment dwellers are no more of a risk to others than any other legally armed citizen.

But if you live in a cheap apartment, you might want to consider some armoring on the interior walls of critical areas like next to sleeping areas so that random gunfire from outside cannot directly strike a sleeping occupant and a "safe room" where residents can gain cover if things go really wrong.

Of course, if you live in the sort of place where such precautions are needed, it's time for you and your neighbors to band together, form a militia and clean up the neighborhood so the thugs are shooting the place up all the time.

[Tero]

Yey Seth! We had a discussion!

[Clinton Huxley]

Seth has a "house-rifle"? What kind of world is this? Is there a "toilet-rifle", a "just-popping-out-for-some-milk" rifle and a "that-kid-was-looking-at-me-kinda-funny" rifle?

Though, in the spirit of full disclosure, I do have a broom for inside the house and one for outside, so I can't talk.

[Hermit]

Heh. I have a front yard cat, a backyard cat, and an indoor dog. Ferocious creatures,all. Gun, or no gun, you don't have a chance to get near me. They'll lick you to death as soon as they've jumped on your lap.

[Seth]

Yey Seth! We had a discussion!

See how easy that was...

[Seth]

Seth has a "house-rifle"? What kind of world is this? Is there a "toilet-rifle", a "just-popping-out-for-some-milk" rifle and a "that-kid-was-looking-at-me-kinda-funny" rifle?

Though, in the spirit of full disclosure, I do have a broom for inside the house and one for outside, so I can't talk.

There's the house rifle (Colt M4), the house shotgun (HK Fabarms 12ga) and the house handgun (HK USP Compact .45 w/threaded barrel for suppressor), then there's the car "rifle" (Sig 556P with forearm brace) and carry handgun (HK USP Compact .45), and the left cargo pocket backup carry gun (Ruger LCR w/laser), also the RV rifle(s) and the go-cases with other handguns, rifles and shotguns ready for load-out should I need to bug out. Then there's the long-range sniper rifles...

Hey, if you've got a right to keep and bear arms like I do, you might as well have as many as you like. This way I don't have to move one or two guns around all the time, there's one everywhere I might need one.

Nothing succeeds like excess!

[JimC]

What would be the best rifle to bag a Gnu with?

[Seth]

What would be the best rifle to bag a Gnu with?

Plains game in Africa tend to have remarkably resilient hides, so you've got to take enough gun. You don't need a "dangerous game" rifle (.375 or larger caliber is required by law in most of Africa) but you do need one suitable for elk or bear hunting in the US. I'd say for a novice .30/378 minimum or any .30 caliber magnum load with a proper big-game bullet designed for African plains game.

Whatever rifle you choose depends on what you want to carry through the bush and how good a stalker and shot you are. Plains game in Africa is typically shot at distances of 200 yards or less due to brush and trees. Extremely long range shots, over 300-400 yards are very uncommon. Therefore you don't need high-powered optics on your rifle, and most professional hunters in Africa use iron sights because they provide faster acquisition of the target at close range, such as when shooting a charging lion or elephant, but then again they are shooting .450 Nitro Express or similar dangerous game double rifles (mostly) for a quick follow-up shot. To get what I mean, watch the movie "Out of Africa."

Any quality bolt-action rifle in the requisite caliber is suitable, so long as you are familiar with it and can shoot it well after walking 10 miles through the bush.

If you book a hunt, your guide will often have suitable rifles on hand so that you don't need to have your own. If you're like me, I have game rifles that I'm intimately familiar with that I'd take, the first being my grandfathers .30-06 custom-made bolt-action Springfield model 1903 with iron peep sight and 3-power fixes Zeiss scope on a removable mount with which he hunted everything from impala to lions in Africa in 1946, just after the war. He used a 2-gauge elephant rifle borrowed from his guide to bag his elephant. The cartridge was a paper shotgun-like cartridge and the bore was 1.325 inches in diameter, and the recoil will knock you flat on your ass if you're not prepared for it.

I hope this was helpful.

[JimC]

The thing about the elephant rifle reminded me of my father telling me about firing the Boy's Rifle while serving with the territorials in England, in the late 30's:

The Rifle, Anti-Tank, .55in, Boys commonly known as the "Boys Anti-tank Rifle" (or incorrectly "Boyes"), was a British anti-tank rifle in use during World War II. It was often nicknamed the "elephant gun" by its users due to its size and large bore.[3]

There were three main versions of the Boys, an early model (Mark I) which had a circular muzzle brake and T-shaped monopod, built primarily at BSA in England, a later model (Mk I*) built primarily at Jonathan Inglis in Toronto Canada, that had a square muzzle brake and a V shaped bipod, and a third model made for airborne forces with a 30-inch (762 mm) barrel and no muzzle brake. There were also different cartridges, with a later version offering better penetration.

Although adequate against light tanks in the early part of the war, the Boys was ineffective against heavier armour and was phased out in favour of the PIAT mid-war.

He said it knocked him arse over tit!

[Seth]

The thing about the elephant rifle reminded me of my father telling me about firing the Boy's Rifle while serving with the territorials in England, in the late 30's:

The Rifle, Anti-Tank, .55in, Boys commonly known as the "Boys Anti-tank Rifle" (or incorrectly "Boyes"), was a British anti-tank rifle in use during World War II. It was often nicknamed the "elephant gun" by its users due to its size and large bore.[3]

There were three main versions of the Boys, an early model (Mark I) which had a circular muzzle brake and T-shaped monopod, built primarily at BSA in England, a later model (Mk I*) built primarily at Jonathan Inglis in Toronto Canada, that had a square muzzle brake and a V shaped bipod, and a third model made for airborne forces with a 30-inch (762 mm) barrel and no muzzle brake. There were also different cartridges, with a later version offering better penetration.

Although adequate against light tanks in the early part of the war, the Boys was ineffective against heavier armour and was phased out in favour of the PIAT mid-war.

He said it knocked him arse over tit!

Well, you are supposed to shoot it from a bipod in the prone position, but yeah. They are still available by the way, on the NFA registry.

[piscator]