Blind groper wrote:Seth
We can say with almost 100% certainty that with more hand guns in the community, the murder rate goes up substantially.
Except it doesn't, as you yourself have stated numerous times. Shall I bother to quote you? No, I think not.
Unsupported assertion.Of course, hand guns are not the only factor determining murder rate, but if the number is high enough, it becomes a very, very important factor. This is especially true in societies with a gun culture.
Since you have repeatedly admitted that the number of handguns in society have no effect on the crime rate you're asking a red herring question.If we look at the five developed and mainly English speaking countries, which is as close as I can get to comparing apples with apples, we can see this point clearly demonstrated. The five countries are NZ, Australia, USA, Canada and Britain. What is the murder rate and the hand gun ownership?
By criminals with guns.Highest murder rate and highest hand gun ownership is USA, with 1 in 3 people owning a hand gun, and a murder rate of 4.3 killings per 100,000 people per year. Half those killings are done with hand guns.
By criminals with guns.The second is Canada. A lot fewer hand guns, but still way too many. Murder rate 1.6 per 100,000 per year, and over half those murders with hand guns.
And yet you still have homicides. And each and every person killed unlawfully by another has an absolute and unquestioned right to be armed to defend themselves against that attack, whether it's committed with a handgun, a baseball bat or someone's feet.Then Britain (1.2), Australia (1.0) and NZ (0.9). All three have next to zero hand guns in the community and the number of hand gun murders are also next to zero. In my country, we get about 40 murders per year and about 1 hand gun killing per decade.
Except it doesn't, as you have repeatedly admitted. The fact is that there are fewer and fewer murders each year and yet more and more handguns in our society, therefore, as you have repeatedly acknowledged, the murder rate is unconnected to the level of legitimate handgun ownership.The data is pretty damn clear cut. More hand guns means more murders.
A number which would probably be much higher if attempts to take handguns out of the hands of law-abiding citizens were attempted...which is amply demonstrated by the murder rates in Chicago, where citizens are virtually forbidden to have ANY firearms in public, or in their homes, versus places like Denver and other cities in states where concealed carry is lawful and a citizen's right to be armed for self defense is respected.In the case of the USA, one hell of a lot more murders. 8,000 hand gun murders per year.
Just because you haven't seen it, or choose not to believe it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is not true. And Lott's critics are hardly his "peers," they are universally well-recognized extreme anti-gun individuals and organizations with an axe to grind and who therefore cannot be trusted to be either objective or truthful.As far as other crimes are concerned, the only 'evidence' I have seen to show more guns less crime is that published by John Lott, and his academic peers have no confidence in his work. In fact, from the reading I have done, it appears that his peers think that Lott's data is a pack of lies.