Guns used for lawful self defense Pt. 4

[Gallstones]

You are avoiding the hard questions Blind groper, the ones that involve real people, real threat, real slaughter.
Tell me that those three women and that one girl child deserved to die by violence so people like you can masturbate on your righteousness.

I consider your POV repellant.

[JimC]

You are avoiding the hard questions Blind groper, the ones that involve real people, real threat, real slaughter.
Tell me that those three women and that one girl child deserved to die by violence so people like you can masturbate on your righteousness.

I consider your POV repellant.

Remember, you are in the US, where your gun obsession over the years has created a situation where lots of criminals have guns, so you feel trapped into the need to self-defence by guns. Maybe, in such a warped situation, it's a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em"

Meanwhile, back in the civilised world, nobody feels the need to protect themselves with guns.

Mostly, in these threads, I'm not agitating for a change in US gun laws - unlike BG, I think you're a lost cause. Mainly, I'm saying that our strict gun laws are a bloody good thing, and I'm fucking glad we haven't gone down the gun obsession road...

[Gallstones]

I don't feel trapped Jim.
I don't even have to lock my doors, I can walk any street anytime of day or night.
We have a very low incidence of violent crime with a high gun ownership. We have some of the least restrictive gun laws of all the states. My state is reacting to preempt and deny increased federal restrictions and these bills are passing with an easy majority of both parties.

I have guns because it pleases me to have them.

[Blind groper]

I not only would have killed him without remorse then, I'd do it still today. The difference is that today I am armed.

Just as well you were not armed then. I feel sympathy for the fact that you were threatened. But I do not feel sympathy for your willingness to kill without remorse. That is a seriously bad trait.

The vast majority of cases where someone feels threatened do not end in that person being killed. The outcome may not be nice, but the victim survives. That is one reason I cry bullshit when Seth claims 2,500,000 DGU's each year. Not the only reason, of course.

Someone threatened you, Gallstones, with murder. Not nice, and you have my sympathy. However, you survived, and you did not end up a killer because you were not armed. Both survival and failing to kill are good.

[orpheus]

I don't feel trapped Jim.
I don't even have to lock my doors, I can walk any street anytime of day or night.
We have a very low incidence of violent crime with a high gun ownership. We have some of the least restrictive gun laws of all the states. My state is reacting to preempt and deny increased federal restrictions and these bills are passing with an easy majority of both parties.

I have guns because it pleases me to have them.

And the high gun ownership in the US in general has ensured that criminals have guns. Insofar as that is the case, any gun owner is contributing to that problem. That's where the trap lies, whether or not you, GS, personally feel it.

[JimC]

What gets me is US gun proponents acting as if their vision of guns and freedom intertwined is some sort of universal, rather that the oddball position of a single country, one whose violent death statistics are rather striking...

Other relatively prosperous countries under the rule of law, including most of western Europe, Australia, NZ and the developed Asian countries (Japan, SK etc.) have strict gun laws, and the populace feels no need to go about armed, either to defend against criminals or against some paranoid fear of governmental tyranny...

American exceptionalism indeed...

[Gallstones]

I not only would have killed him without remorse then, I'd do it still today. The difference is that today I am armed.

Just as well you were not armed then. I feel sympathy for the fact that you were threatened. But I do not feel sympathy for your willingness to kill without remorse. That is a seriously bad trait.

The vast majority of cases where someone feels threatened do not end in that person being killed. The outcome may not be nice, but the victim survives. That is one reason I cry bullshit when Seth claims 2,500,000 DGU's each year. Not the only reason, of course.

Someone threatened you, Gallstones, with murder. Not nice, and you have my sympathy. However, you survived, and you did not end up a killer because you were not armed. Both survival and failing to kill are good.

Sometimes survival is not the best outcome.

[Gallstones]

What gets me is US gun proponents acting as if their vision of guns and freedom intertwined is some sort of universal, rather that the oddball position of a single country, one whose violent death statistics are rather striking...

Other relatively prosperous countries under the rule of law, including most of western Europe, Australia, NZ and the developed Asian countries (Japan, SK etc.) have strict gun laws, and the populace feels no need to go about armed, either to defend against criminals or against some paranoid fear of governmental tyranny...

American exceptionalism indeed...

I am not a gun proponent.
And it is you, the UK and Commonwealthers, who presume that we in the US be made in your image.

No.

What other nations do is irrelvent. The US is not Europe, or the UK or a UK Commonwealth. We are not Japan or Asia--and neither are you.
We aren't preventing you your smug, elitist contentment. Indulge.
I don't care what laws you have or how things are different, or that you want different things. I am not pressing you to be like me or think like me or want what I want. Live and let live. Both ways that is.

[JimC]

What gets me is US gun proponents acting as if their vision of guns and freedom intertwined is some sort of universal, rather that the oddball position of a single country, one whose violent death statistics are rather striking...

Other relatively prosperous countries under the rule of law, including most of western Europe, Australia, NZ and the developed Asian countries (Japan, SK etc.) have strict gun laws, and the populace feels no need to go about armed, either to defend against criminals or against some paranoid fear of governmental tyranny...

American exceptionalism indeed...

I am not a gun proponent.
And it is you, the UK and Commonwealthers, who presume that we in the US be made in your image.

No.

What other nations do is irrelvent. The US is not Europe, or the UK or a UK Commonwealth. We are not Japan or Asia--and neither are you.

My point is that the statements made my US gun proponents (not necessarily you) are often stated as universal truths, when they should be seen as very singular, and peculiar to a unique social arrangement, certainly different to the way most of the rest of the developed world lives.

[Gallstones]

How much time have you spent in the US?
Maybe a person shouldn't judge a people and nation based on snapshots on the internet?

Even if our social arrangement is different from the rest of the developed world--so what? That's bad? How, why, how do you know?
And even if it is bad for you, you aren't the spokesperson for humanity. None of us can know what will be or what will prove advantageous or disadvantageous. So keep to your restrictions, I don't want them. I want to be unfettered. The chips fall where they may.

Is innovation and progress fostered by homgeneity or diversity?

It's possible that the "civilized" world may need savages someday.

[JimC]

How much time have you spent in the US?
Maybe a person shouldn't judge a people and nation based on snapshots on the internet?

Even if our social arrengement is different from the rest of the developed world--so what? That's bad? How, why, how do you know?
And even if it is bad for you, you aren't the spokesperson for humanity. None of us can know what will be or what will prove advantageous or disadvantageous. So keep to your restrictions, I don't want them. I want to be unfettered. The chips fall where they may.

Again, you have missed my point. Apologists for your gun laws and traditions, both in the press and on this forum, continually make statements which imply that their views on guns are universal truths, rather than a peculiarity of one nation. Such arrogance and cultural blindness is truly breathtaking...

That's the only point I've been making in these last few posts of mine...

[Gallstones]

I only ever speak for myself.
I only ever answer for myself.

Ultimately--as Woodbutcher has said--I'm all that won't fail me.

[Blind groper]

I want to be unfettered.

Liberty is not being permitted to play with lethal toys. Liberty has a number of facets, and that is not one.

Liberty is freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of travel, freedom to engage in pursuits that do not harm others, freedom of thought, freedom to access information without hindrance. And so on.

Liberty is not being allowed to drive drunk, or play with loaded guns, or any other activity that results in a high risk of killing other people.

The other western and developed and wealthy nations that do not permit any old idiot or criminal to own and use loaded firearms are free because they do not restrain the things that matter.

[Gallstones]

I have been harmed by people exercising their other guaranteed freedoms and I have never harmed, no do I have any desire on harming anyone with my excercise of my right to keep and bear arms. In the US we have that right. In the US we do have the liberty to have and play with "lethal" toys. That liberty exists. I have it. I exercise it. I value it.

BTW, guns are the most fun when they are loaded.

Other western nations can do as they please, but if they would impose their elitist catholicism on us they can fuck off.

[Blind groper]

Other western nations can do as they please, but if they would impose their elitist catholicism on us they can fuck off.

Actually, the majority of Americans want stronger gun control.
The only thing stopping people like Obama providing the majority with what they want is the tyranny of the minority. In this case, the NRA and its allies, who have politicians in their back pocket.

The fact that the USA is apparently unable to provide the stronger gun control most Americans want is a result of the political corruption that permeates your sorry country.