The case against guns

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Tero
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Re: The case against guns

Post by Tero » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:38 am

Seth wrote:
Tero wrote:I trust the NSF to fund research from basic to applied, including some with no practical use.

The polymerase chain reaction was invented in industry, but required 20 years of Gubment funded work prior to that.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National ... Foundation
No, it didn't REQUIRE government-funded research, it was the PRODUCT of government-funded research and there's absolutely no evidence that it wouldn't have been discovered earlier, or more cheaply, through free-market economics...like IBM did to the personal computer.

You can't bootstrap an argument like that by claiming that some invention or advancement in science is NECESSARILY or EXCLUSIVELY the result of government-funded research. Most of the great inventions in the world are NOT the product of government research...like the telephone and light bulb.
You just stick to your guns, OK? If you play nice, we'll let you play with a banana too.

Gubment sponsored H C Brown. I'll start a topic.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by orpheus » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:02 am

Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
What if you found out they saved 10 lives, and only got 1 killed? Would your opinion change?
When the US murder rates go down 75% to match more sane countries sure, until then its a body count
How ethnocentric of you.

What about if I'm perfectly satisfied with my country's "body count?"
Then that says a lot about you.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Blind groper » Sat Jun 15, 2013 4:57 am

To Collector

I am not aware of any occasion in my country where a massive confiscation of hand guns took place, and I think no such action ever happened. However, if it had, I would be all in favour. Getting rid of hand guns does everyone a favour.

I doubt it has happened much at all, anywhere. Possibly in Australia, where a big crack down on weapons took place after their Port Arthur shooting. If that happened, I applaud the action. Possibly Jim might enlighten us on that one?

I seriously doubt that mass confiscations, even of hand guns has happened in too many places, even though it is something that should have happened everywhere, especially the USA.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by JimC » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:31 am

Blind groper wrote:To Collector

I am not aware of any occasion in my country where a massive confiscation of hand guns took place, and I think no such action ever happened. However, if it had, I would be all in favour. Getting rid of hand guns does everyone a favour.

I doubt it has happened much at all, anywhere. Possibly in Australia, where a big crack down on weapons took place after their Port Arthur shooting. If that happened, I applaud the action. Possibly Jim might enlighten us on that one?

I seriously doubt that mass confiscations, even of hand guns has happened in too many places, even though it is something that should have happened everywhere, especially the USA.
After the Port Arthur shooting, there was certainly a tightening in gun controls, brought in by a conservative PM of the time, John Howard, against opposition from within his own ranks. Here is an excerpt from a Wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politi ... nsequences (the same one Faku linked to earlier. Naturally, I don't think the laws are ridiculous at all, but very sensible...)
The Port Arthur massacre in 1996 transformed gun control legislation in Australia. Thirty five people were killed and 21 wounded when a man with a history of violent and erratic behaviour beginning in early childhood[14] opened fire on shop owners and tourists with two military style semi-automatic rifles. Six weeks after the Dunblane massacre in Scotland,[9] this mass killing at the notorious former convict prison at Port Arthur horrified the Australian public and had powerful political consequences.
The Port Arthur perpetrator said he bought his firearms from a gun dealer without holding the required firearms licence.[15]
Prime Minister John Howard, then newly elected, immediately took the gun law proposals developed from the report of the 1988 National Committee on Violence[16] and forced the states to adopt them under a National Firearms Agreement. This was necessary because the Australian Constitution does not give the Commonwealth power to enact gun laws. The proposals included a ban on all semi-automatic rifles and all semi-automatic and pump-action shotguns, and a tightly restrictive system of licensing and ownership controls.
Some discussion of measures to allow owners to undertake modifications to reduce the capacity of magazine-fed shotguns ("crimping") occurred, but the government refused to permit this.
Surveys showed up to 85% of Australians supported gun control, but some farmers and sporting shooters strongly opposed the new laws.
The government planned a series of public meetings to explain the proposed changes. In the first meeting, on the advice of his security team, Howard wore a bullet-resistant vest, which was visible under his jacket. Many shooters were critical of this.[17][18][19]
Some shooters applied to join the Liberal Party of Australia in an attempt to influence the government, but the Liberal Party barred them from membership.[20][21] A court action by 500 shooters seeking admission to membership eventually failed in the Supreme Court of South Australia.[22]
The Australian Constitution prevents the taking of property without just compensation, so the federal government introduced the Medicare Levy Amendment Act 1996 to raise the predicted cost of A$500 million through a one-off increase in the Medicare levy. The gun buy-back scheme started on 1 October 1996 and concluded on 30 September 1997.[23] The buyback purchased and destroyed more than 631,000 firearms, mostly semi-auto .22 rimfires, semi-automatic shotguns and pump-action shotguns. Only Victoria provided a breakdown of types destroyed, and in that state less than 3% were military style semi-automatic rifles.
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Re: The case against guns

Post by Blind groper » Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:58 am

My congratulations to the Australian government for carrying out a very sensible and rational course of action. For Australia, it took one mass killing. In the USA, there are on average, 20 mass killings each year, plus 8,000 hand gun murders, and no action ensues. What does this say for the sanity of the American administration?

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Re: The case against guns

Post by MrJonno » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:32 am

Blind groper wrote:My congratulations to the Australian government for carrying out a very sensible and rational course of action. For Australia, it took one mass killing. In the USA, there are on average, 20 mass killings each year, plus 8,000 hand gun murders, and no action ensues. What does this say for the sanity of the American administration?
It's good they have done this but I don't think mass gun killings are particularly statistically relevant at least outside the US. You are basically dealing with situations that happen once every 5 years or so. Most killings are domestic murders between people who know each other or street arguments that escalate out of control. That's when not having guns around are important
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

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Re: The case against guns

Post by JimC » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:49 am

MrJonno wrote:
Blind groper wrote:My congratulations to the Australian government for carrying out a very sensible and rational course of action. For Australia, it took one mass killing. In the USA, there are on average, 20 mass killings each year, plus 8,000 hand gun murders, and no action ensues. What does this say for the sanity of the American administration?
It's good they have done this but I don't think mass gun killings are particularly statistically relevant at least outside the US. You are basically dealing with situations that happen once every 5 years or so. Most killings are domestic murders between people who know each other or street arguments that escalate out of control. That's when not having guns around are important
Particularly handguns...
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Re: The case against guns

Post by Collector1337 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:58 am

orpheus wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
What if you found out they saved 10 lives, and only got 1 killed? Would your opinion change?
When the US murder rates go down 75% to match more sane countries sure, until then its a body count
How ethnocentric of you.

What about if I'm perfectly satisfied with my country's "body count?"
Then that says a lot about you.
Such as?
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Blind groper » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:32 am

Çollector

Your country has a firearms murder rate that is many fold greater than its counterparts elsewhere in the west. Even the total per capita murder rate is 5 times as high as it is in my country.

If you feel that is OK, there is something very wrong with you.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:45 am

orpheus wrote:
Collector1337 wrote:
MrJonno wrote:
What if you found out they saved 10 lives, and only got 1 killed? Would your opinion change?
When the US murder rates go down 75% to match more sane countries sure, until then its a body count
How ethnocentric of you.

What about if I'm perfectly satisfied with my country's "body count?"
Then that says a lot about you.
Actually, in some ways, it can be taken as refreshing honesty. Some gun advocates are in denial about the large number of gun-related deaths in the US.

An honest response from a gun fanatic would be "I don't care how many people die in this country via guns, as long as I'm allowed unrestricted access to my firearms of choice; my personal rights trump any notion of government regulation to protect a community"
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Re: The case against guns

Post by Collector1337 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:58 pm

Blind groper wrote:Çollector

Your country has a firearms murder rate that is many fold greater than its counterparts elsewhere in the west. Even the total per capita murder rate is 5 times as high as it is in my country.

If you feel that is OK, there is something very wrong with you.
:funny:

Wrong how?
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

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Re: The case against guns

Post by laklak » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:11 pm

JimC wrote:..."I don't care how many people die in this country via guns, as long as I'm allowed unrestricted access to my firearms of choice; my personal rights trump any notion of government regulation to protect a community"...
Pretty much. 46 shootings in Chicago, 7 fatal, in one weekend, in the city with the strictest gun laws in the country. Fat lot of good those laws are doing them, eh? And while I feel terrible for the families in the end it's not my problem. The fact that people can't control themselves in some big city 1200 miles away from me has no impact on me at all and has nothing to do with my guns.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:14 pm

laklak wrote:
JimC wrote:..."I don't care how many people die in this country via guns, as long as I'm allowed unrestricted access to my firearms of choice; my personal rights trump any notion of government regulation to protect a community"...
Pretty much. 46 shootings in Chicago, 7 fatal, in one weekend, in the city with the strictest gun laws in the country. Fat lot of good those laws are doing them, eh? And while I feel terrible for the families in the end it's not my problem. The fact that people can't control themselves in some big city 1200 miles away from me has no impact on me at all and has nothing to do with my guns.
This -- and in New Hampshire, they have about as low a gun homicide rate as in the UK. Yet, they ave among the loosest gun laws in the world.

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Jason » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:25 pm

Wait.. are youse guys suggesting that it could be a.. cultural thing? Like how in Canada I can buy whatever and however many guns I want so long as I have a license (unlike Australia where I'd have to prove I have a 'need' to even buy a .22), but our rate of gun violence is extremely low?

Novel idea. :tea:

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Re: The case against guns

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:31 pm

Făkünamę wrote:Wait.. are youse guys suggesting that it could be a.. cultural thing? Like how in Canada I can buy whatever and however many guns I want so long as I have a license (unlike Australia where I'd have to prove I have a 'need' to even buy a .22), but our rate of gun violence is extremely low?

Novel idea. :tea:
That is precisely what I am suggesting. :coffee:

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