Policing ourselves

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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Seth » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:43 pm

Gallstones wrote:Somewhat left of my POV, but the author makes some valid points.

Both Sides are Wrong in the Gun Debate ~Pascal-Emmanuel Gobry 06.16.14
The situation is vastly more complex than partisans claim.

In the wake of several fatal shootings that have once again unnerved Americans, partisans on both sides are trotting out the same tired narratives. Liberals declare that if only we regulated and banned guns like Europe does, there wouldn't be any more gun violence. Conservatives insist that the solution to gun violence is more guns, and just more guns.

Both of these narratives fail to take into account inconvenient facts, and in the end, both sides are wrong. Here are five critical facts that greatly inconvenience the simple narratives they are peddling.
Five Facts at the link.
From the first Fact:
In other words, the situation envisioned by the Second Amendment is, contra the liberals, one where most everyone owns guns. But, contra the conservatives, the founders envisioned a society where gun ownership is connected to certain service obligations. Imagine a situation more like Switzerland — the other rich country with widespread private gun ownership but where, because everyone is required to undergo regular training and secure their weapons and so on, gun violence is very low.
This is both true and untrue.

The Founders envisioned a society where gun ownership by the populace is essential to the security of a free state because it permits Congress to raise armies as needed from the "unorganized militia" comprised of all able-bodied males between 18 and 45 who are both armed and competent in the use of those arms. However, as the Supreme Court said in Heller et. seq. the right to keep and bear arms is not conditioned upon service or even membership in the Militia. The Founders recognized that arms are as important to the individual for individual security as they are to the nation for national security.

However, he makes a very valid point that one of the powers that Congress absolutely has is the power to compel every citizen to be educated and trained in marksmanship and gun safety. This power derives from Congress' power to raise armies which necessarily requires (or is at least enhanced) by having not only an armed citizenry, but a trained (well regulated) citizenry, which minimizes the costs and time involved in training soldiers in the event of invasion or insurrection, thus enhancing Congress' ability to quickly and effectively raise armies. There is deep historical precedent for exercising this authority extended back before the United States even existed, as evidenced by the Ordinances of the Jamestown colony (and others) that required all male adults to have a musket, powder, shot and other essential supplies like food and a blanket on hand at all times, and they were required to bring them to church on Sunday for militia inspection and drill after church.

With this in mind, I advocate that Congress exercise this power to require mandatory firearms training in all public schools, beginning in the first grade with simple safety training and proceeding through advanced marksmanship training as the child matures, culminating in the government issuing one military battle rifle (M-4 or equivalent) and one military handgun (9mm or .45) and a basic load of government-issued ammunition to each graduating high school senior, which they are required to keep and bear, and maintain and train with regularly, from high school graduation until they reach age 45, at which time, barring a criminal record, a grateful nation grants them full private ownership of those arms in compensation for their service in the Unorganized Militia.

This of course would not preclude any adult from owning as many OTHER firearms as they wish, or from carrying them in public.

This would indeed grant the serious benefits of universal gun safety and marksmanship education, which is the MOST effective way to reduce gun accidents, as well as suppressing crime through the ubiquitous carrying of arms in public by all law-abiding citizens.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:48 pm

Seth wrote:

...Ordinances of the Jamestown colony (and others) that required all male adults to have a musket, powder, shot and other essential supplies like food and a blanket on hand at all times, and they were required to bring them to church on Sunday for militia inspection and drill after church...
Living in the past much, Seth? :roll:

Historical anecdotes of this nature say nothing relevant to the needs of current society. The zeitgeist has moved on...
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Tero » Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:11 am

You can have the musket, Seth. After we get done, that is all you get. You have to melt the bullets and make the black powder.
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Seth » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:12 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...Ordinances of the Jamestown colony (and others) that required all male adults to have a musket, powder, shot and other essential supplies like food and a blanket on hand at all times, and they were required to bring them to church on Sunday for militia inspection and drill after church...
Living in the past much, Seth? :roll:

Historical anecdotes of this nature say nothing relevant to the needs of current society. The zeitgeist has moved on...
Legally speaking, historical anecdotes are extremely relevant and in point of fact this particular anecdote was explicitly mentioned by the Supreme Court in its ruling because it shows the context within which the 2nd Amendment was drafted and provides evidence of the intent of the founders, which is important to the proper analysis and interpretation of the document.

The need for a well-regulated (trained) pool of citizens from which to draw an effective army still exists today. One of the chief complaints of the military brass these days is that a majority of young people eligible for military service are physically unfit to serve due to obesity and other health problems. This impacts Congress' ability to raise an army at need, as does a societal unfamiliarity with the proper use of firearms.

It's precisely the prescience and brilliance of the Founders in legislating with the future in mind that makes our Constitution so valuable.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Seth » Tue Jun 17, 2014 3:14 am

Tero wrote:You can have the musket, Seth. After we get done, that is all you get. You have to melt the bullets and make the black powder.
The Founders anticipated your canard Tero, which is why they didn't say "the right to keep and bear muskets," they said "arms," which means all arms and most importantly those contemporary arms suitable for use by the individual soldier, like fully-automatic assault rifles and their semi-automatic look-alike copies.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by JimC » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:13 am

Seth wrote:

The need for a well-regulated (trained) pool of citizens from which to draw an effective army still exists today. One of the chief complaints of the military brass these days is that a majority of young people eligible for military service are physically unfit to serve due to obesity and other health problems. This impacts Congress' ability to raise an army at need, as does a societal unfamiliarity with the proper use of firearms.
I don't doubt that there are real issues in terms of the fitness of many potential military recruits, and I'd be pretty sure that this applies in many modern western societies. I'm not a pacifist, and I recognise that nations need to recruit and maintain effective armed forces.

However, some ancient tale of muskets, and parading after church on Sunday is utterly unimportant in this context. Nations need to look at their health and education policies if they wish to have a better pool of young adults to draw from. They do not need previous firearms training, that can happen after induction. What they need is health, fitness, and probably some experience of hiking or camping in the great outdoors.
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Gallstones » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:39 am

Gun Owner Shows Poise During Assault and Holds His Fire Due to Downrange Children
...an Idaho gun owner is earning praise from police and his local community for *not* opening fire on a woman who opened fire on him with a BB gun.

The woman, identified as Dominica Maddux, grabbed a BB gun and shot one man in the face as an escalation to a prior argument. Then she made an almost fatal mistake.

...it began when he was inside his home and his wife told him there was someone outside the house a gun.

“I got my gun … put it in my back pocket,” he said. “I walked outside. As soon as I walked outside, I got shot in the leg. So I pulled (out) my gun, pointed it at her and she took off running.”

Hanekamp’s gun was not a BB gun — it was a 9 mm.

He said he didn’t fire because of the many children in the neighborhood.
...
This incident is the most common type of defensive gun use. That is, one in which no shots were fired and no one was hurt. Despite this being the most common type of defensive gun use, these incidents are often not included in statistics about defensive gun uses. Many of these statistics and studies focus solely on justifiable homicides.
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:49 am

Good to hear about a responsible gun owner.

My friend's dad got shot by someone trying to save him from a mugger (who stabbed him). Blew his knew out.
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by JimC » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:03 am

rEvolutionist wrote:Good to hear about a responsible gun owner.

My friend's dad got shot by someone trying to save him from a mugger (who stabbed him). Blew his knew out.
And there's nothing worse than a blown knew... :tea:
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:35 am

:hehe: Man, that was one of my more creative posting errors. They are becoming very common lately. :sadcheer:
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by JimC » Tue Jun 17, 2014 7:36 am

rEvolutionist wrote::hehe: Man, that was one of my more creative posting errors. They are becoming very common lately. :sadcheer:
That's because you have given up beer... :nono:
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:06 am

Probably. Although, honestly, I think it is the stress and lack of sleep that I am operating under. Once I move and settle in, I'm hoping my error rate drops back to just terrible, as opposed to utterly horrendous.
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Gallstones » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:57 pm

A PSA written and produced by EVOLVE

But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:06 am

:lol:
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Re: Policing ourselves

Post by Gallstones » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:38 pm

But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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