What is this an example of to you?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

This doesn't belong in the gun club. It's not about guns. It's Politics and Current Affairs. What's with the desire to stuff everything out of sight here???

It was moved from the Gnu Club to here. Are you trying to tell me it had more to do with gnus than guns?

[piscator]

It was moved from the Gnu Club to here. Are you trying to tell me it had more to do with gnus than guns?

It's about squatters who have successfully window dressed a legally-indefensible land rights claim with enough Wingnut buzzwords and interstate access to attract a critical mass of trigger-happy Glenn Beckers just itchin' to have them a big ol' High Noon standoff with The Obamanation and Libbrilism, the only'st way they know how.

[FBM]

This doesn't belong in the gun club. It's not about guns. It's Politics and Current Affairs. What's with the desire to stuff everything out of sight here???

It was done by request. And I did intend to leave open the option of discussing guns. I just accidentally put it in the Gnu Club instead of the Gun Club.

[FBM]

It's not called The Commons, it's called US Public Land, and for a long time now if you intend to run your cows on Public Land for your own personal gain, you have to pay to [somewhat partially] offset the damage your livestock causes to the owners of that land which you don't hold title to (me, and every other US Citizen).
The trespass is the same as if I cut your fence and ran 1000 head of my cows on your rye grass pasture.

But it used to be called the "free range" or "open range," where people could graze their cattle unmolested. What I'm pointing out is that teh gummit has slowly take it over and started profiting off it. It wasn't originally that way.

[piscator]

It's not called The Commons, it's called US Public Land, and for a long time now if you intend to run your cows on Public Land for your own personal gain, you have to pay to [somewhat partially] offset the damage your livestock causes to the owners of that land which you don't hold title to (me, and every other US Citizen).
The trespass is the same as if I cut your fence and ran 1000 head of my cows on your rye grass pasture.

But it used to be called the "free range" or "open range," where people could graze their cattle unmolested. What I'm pointing out is that teh gummit has slowly take it over and started profiting off it. It wasn't originally that way.

There didn't used to 350 million people in the country, but there is now. And there didn't used to be a long history of range abuse, but there is now. BLM grazing fees don't cover the cost of management, and amount to a Federal subsidy because they are typically much cheaper than private leases.

Bundy doesn't have a legal claim to the land, so when your Public Land manager BLM rotates it out of the grazing program, Bundy commits trespass when he stiff-neckedly insists on his ancestral access to the Public Teat rather than run his cows someplace down the road where he can get an actual grazing lease.

[JimC]

To me, this is about the rule of law. If, as Piscator and others have said, US courts have ruled that the public land the cattle are being grazed on is not available for grazing unless a fee is payed, and someone is evading this fee, then they are in the wrong, and the authorities have every right to take action.

If they don't like it, they should take their case to a higher court and argue it, as every other citizen has to do if there is a dispute. If the legal process is wrong in the opinion of many, then it becomes a matter for peaceful protest and/or political lobbying.

Not a libertarian dummy spit and a threat of violence because the umpire did not rule in their favour.

[piscator]

To me, this is about the rule of law. If, as Piscator and others have said, US courts have ruled that the public land the cattle are being grazed on is not available for grazing unless a fee is payed, and someone is evading this fee, then they are in the wrong, and the authorities have every right to take action.

If they don't like it, they should take their case to a higher court and argue it, as every other citizen has to do if there is a dispute. If the legal process is wrong in the opinion of many, then it becomes a matter for peaceful protest and/or political lobbying.

Not a libertarian dummy spit and a threat of violence because the umpire did not rule in their favour.

BLM took the land out of the grazing program in 1998 to protect desert tortoises, and to let the block recover to its natural state. This was inconvenient to Bundy, so based on an unrecorded agreement he dates at 1870 between his Mormon ancestors and the other Mormon settlers, he figures he has preemptive right against the initial conversion of his favorite grazing leases into the Public Trust.
IOW, Bundy says it's not Public Land because of a preexisting claim, which he decided to exercise when they cut off his grazing lease.
Trouble is, Nevada became a state in 1864, and in its Enabling Act relinquished all claims on Federal Lands within its boundaries. The land in question was patently owned by the citizens of the US and administered by Congress (by virtue of the Property Clause of the US Constitution) before Bundy's Sainted ancestors ever parked the wagon and 'claimed' it for their business.

[pErvinalia]

This doesn't belong in the gun club. It's not about guns. It's Politics and Current Affairs. What's with the desire to stuff everything out of sight here???

Because it brought in the concept of armed militias fighting for freedom...

Yeah, but it's not about guns per se. It's about governments potentially overstepping their mark and a serious social movement in the US.

[pErvinalia]

This doesn't belong in the gun club. It's not about guns. It's Politics and Current Affairs. What's with the desire to stuff everything out of sight here???

It was moved from the Gnu Club to here. Are you trying to tell me it had more to do with gnus than guns?

I'm trying to tell you that your avatar is seriously freaking me out!

[Xamonas Chegwé]

This doesn't belong in the gun club. It's not about guns. It's Politics and Current Affairs. What's with the desire to stuff everything out of sight here???

It was moved from the Gnu Club to here. Are you trying to tell me it had more to do with gnus than guns?

I'm trying to tell you that your avatar is seriously freaking me out!

Good.

[pErvinalia]

It's not called The Commons, it's called US Public Land, and for a long time now if you intend to run your cows on Public Land for your own personal gain, you have to pay to [somewhat partially] offset the damage your livestock causes to the owners of that land which you don't hold title to (me, and every other US Citizen).
The trespass is the same as if I cut your fence and ran 1000 head of my cows on your rye grass pasture.

But it used to be called the "free range" or "open range," where people could graze their cattle unmolested. What I'm pointing out is that teh gummit has slowly take it over and started profiting off it. It wasn't originally that way.

There didn't used to 350 million people in the country, but there is now. And there didn't used to be a long history of range abuse, but there is now. BLM grazing fees don't cover the cost of management, and amount to a Federal subsidy because they are typically much cheaper than private leases.

Bundy doesn't have a legal claim to the land, so when your Public Land manager BLM rotates it out of the grazing program, Bundy commits trespass when he stiff-neckedly insists on his ancestral access to the Public Teat rather than run his cows someplace down the road where he can get an actual grazing lease.

I'm sort of reminded in a small, less serious and less scary, way of the situation in my own gorge up here in the mountains. There are a couple of pioneering families still left up here, and some of them treat the gorge and surrounds as their own private lands. They log where they want to and they let their cows roam free through the gorge (to graze on other people's private property). A mate of mine works for what was formerly the Department of Natural Resources here and he was involved in prosecuting one ancient hillbilly for illegally logging in the world heritage rainforest. When they visited him one time he was making threatening gestures and remarks about his loaded gun. Nutbag. He should die soon, hopefully. He's about 120 or something.

[Tyrannical]

This is clearly an example of too large of a federal government without enough to do

[FBM]

I'm all for protected lands and habitats. The more the merrier. But where there isn't one, teh gummit should fuck off.

[Gallstones]

The BLM changed something regarding the grazing fee in 1993 and Bundy got pissed off and stopped paying it but kept grazing his cattle there. There was also a change in the status of the land to accommodate the desert tortoise that was declared endangered so some of the parcels he was grazing became off limits. He also allows them to move outside the permitted parcels. There was a court case last July, he lost the case and was ordered to remove his livestock. At that time he was told they'd be seized if he did not remove them. And an earlier case in 1998.

This is public land, he owes the fees to us. He has essentially been allowed to poach the land. It is no lesser a theft than poaching game animals.

The man is cracked.

“This is what we the people are going to demand this morning,” Cliven said during his turn at the microphone after Gillespie’s announcement. “You disarm those park service people. And take a pick-up and I want those arms. We want those arms hauled to Virgin Valley disposal. We want those arms delivered right here under these flags in one hour."

He has no standing to demand anyone turn over their arms to him.
He's lucky they didn't give them to him muzzle first and empty the magazines.

[Gallstones]

Grazing fees are $1.35/head/month.