Guns used for lawful self-defense Pt. 5

[Jason]

I actually find groper more tedious than Seth. Seth debates your position point by point, however honestly, but groper goes for the warrants under your claims, then the warrants for those warrants, then the warrants for the warrants of the warrants.

He's an exercise in recursive argumentation. He wants to start from first principles, or he's a dick. Whatever.

[Blind groper]

To rephrase your statement.
I dislike Groper because he does not agree with my views.

However, I make good use of proper statistics and research reports instead of mere anecdotes.

[JimC]

We only have 2 genuine gun crazies on the forum, Collector and Seth (well, 3 if you count Gallstones, but she seems to have pissed off...)

Then you can add half a Faku, and a smallish percentage of FBM...

Of course there's always Laklak, but he's just a complete and utter shit-stirrer...

CES dabbles, but really hasn't the heart for it...

The rest of the forum are either stern and sober anti-gun types like BG and myself...

Or those who could not give a flying continental fuck...

[Blind groper]

I have to admit that I am getting quite sick of this debate. If the idiots could learn how harmful their obsession with guns is, it might be OK. However, for the sane people who support better gun control, the whole thing is just a head butting exercise.

[Seth]

UK civilian use of defensive firearms quite possibly zero last year I don't see lots of bodies

And yet the UK has a positive firearm murder rate, doesn't it?

It's no wonder that law-abiding citizens abide by the law...particularly given how abusive the legal system is to anyone who has the temerity to defend themselves with a weapon.

Doesn't prove a thing except that law-abiding people obey the law...even when it costs them their lives and property.

Silly buggers.

You read too many headlines. You are also a huge arse.

Well, my arse is much smaller that it used to be...at the top of my game I weighed 310 pounds and wore a 60 waist jean. Now I weigh 228 and wear a 42/44 waist. The only problem is I have these flaps of skin that spread out when I lie down makes me look like a melting candle. Gross. I may need a nip/tuck in the future.

[Seth]

You are aware that Lott (who is not the only one who has done such research) was anti-gun when he started his research aren't you? It was his research that convinced him of the truth of the phrase "more guns, less crime."


They could have simply done the same research THEMSELVES, with appropriate scientific controls to prevent bias, and formed their own conclusions,



dismissing the fact that at least ten times more people are NOT victimized by criminals BECAUSE they have firearms than are murdered

Point 1. Lott being anti-gun when he started. It would not be the first time someone was converted to an opposite view when he found there was big, big money to be made.

Or when he discovered that his ill-informed opinions were entirely wrong and the data shows the actual truth: More gun, less crime.

Point 2. About the other researchers, when you say they could have done the research themselves. The short answer is that they did. In fact, they carried out extensive surveys of possible DGU's well before they looked into Lott's work. It was the major, major discrepancy between his results and theirs that led to them closely examining Lott's work, and discovering that there was no objective evidence that the surveys Lott quotes were ever done.

No they didn't.

Point 3. The claim that there were ten times more DGU's than hand gun murders. There is certainly no major increase in crime victims among non gun owners compared to gun owners.

Which blows your "more guns, more crime" right out of the water from the get-go. Pity you can't comprehend that fact.

If DGU's were as prevalent and important as you suggest, then the non gun owners (and there are twice as many as gun owners) would be massively over-represented among crime victims, which is just not true. So the idea that DGU's are important in preventing crime is just so much hot air.

Been through this fallacious and illogical chain of thinking many times and you're still wrong.

[Seth]

We only have 2 genuine gun crazies on the forum, Collector and Seth (well, 3 if you count Gallstones, but she seems to have pissed off...)

Then you can add half a Faku, and a smallish percentage of FBM...

Of course there's always Laklak, but he's just a complete and utter shit-stirrer...

CES dabbles, but really hasn't the heart for it...

The rest of the forum are either stern and sober anti-gun types like BG and myself...

Or those who could not give a flying continental fuck...

We also have hordes of anti-gun fuckwits...like you. So there!

[Seth]

I have to admit that I am getting quite sick of this debate. If the idiots could learn how harmful their obsession with guns is, it might be OK. However, for the sane people who support better gun control, the whole thing is just a head butting exercise.

Well, if you'd learn how to apply reason, logic and facts to your argument it wouldn't be so pedantically idiotic.

[Seth]

Data falling from the sky like snowflakes:

Crime
Armed Thug Threatens Ariz. Man and His Wife – But It Wasn’t the Homeowner Who Needed Help
Jun. 21, 2013 11:00pm Jason Howerton

Arizona Man Shoots Would Be Burglar After He Breaks Into His Home

(KTVK)

An Arizona homeowner shot an armed man who broke into his Sun City home early Friday morning, Maricopa County sheriff’s deputies said. The suspect was able to elude authorities for hours after being shot but was apprehended at a local golf course.

The armed suspect, identified as 33-year-old Joshua Barnes, allegedly broke into a home at around 2 a.m. and threatened the homeowner.

When the thug went to say something to the homeowner’s wife, the would-be burglary victim retrieved his own gun and shot the suspect.

Barnes was able to escape despite being shot by the homeowner. Investigators found the suspect’s bloody trail but it took them hours to arrest him.
[azfamily.com] Video | News | Weather | Sports

Fri Jun 21 05:23:09 PDT 2013
Suspect shot during Sun City home invasion apprehended on golf course

Maricopa County sheriff’s deputies said they arrested the armed man who was shot during a home invasion in Sun City early Friday morning. That suspect was at the center of a large search that went on for hours. view full article

More from KTVK:

Eight hours later, with the temperature rising, the search crews got a break in the form of a call reporting a man walking awkwardly on the 16th hole of the Sun City Country Club.

Brian Smalley happened to be nearby.

“I noticed he had a cloth around his right hand, which I thought was a glove when I first looked at it,” he said. “Then I looked at it again and it was blood running up his arm, looked like he was stopping the bleeding.”

Smalley called 911 and within seconds the wounded wanted man was surrounded by SWAT officers and sheriff’s deputies. They knew he had been hit when the homeowner opened fire, but were weren’t sure exactly what kind of injuries he sustained. Finally catching up with him, they discovered he had been shot in the hand and grazed in the neck.

Neither the homeowner or his wife were injured in the attempted burglary.

Sun City local Walter Ready told KTVK that theft is common in the area, however, items are usually stolen from outside homes.

“We have a few little degenerates that run around here,” he said. “I would hope that it’s not one of them.”

[Jason]

Guns - causing 50 times less deaths per year than alcohol.

Won't somebody think of the children! OH the HUGE MANATEE!

[Blind groper]

A difference between guns and alcohol.

Both cause enormous amounts of harm, and undoubtedly, humanity would be better off if neither existed. However, the experiments of banning guns and banning alcohol have both been done. The big difference is that one works and the other does not.

The USA went through the prohibition era in which alcohol was legally banned, and the ban proved to be a boon for the mafia. The ban did not work but got the mafia rich, giving them the resources to expand their crime base.

However, partial bans on guns have been applied in 23 out of the 24 richest countries, and in each case the ban worked. As a result of that, the one nation that did not apply a partial gun ban has 85% of all firearms murders of all 24 richest nations put together.

So empirical results show that banning alcohol fails, but a partial ban on guns works, and massively reduces murder rates.

[Seth]

A difference between guns and alcohol.

Both cause enormous amounts of harm, and undoubtedly, humanity would be better off if neither existed. However, the experiments of banning guns and banning alcohol have both been done. The big difference is that one works and the other does not.

Actually, prohibition never works, anywhere, ever.
\

The USA went through the prohibition era in which alcohol was legally banned, and the ban proved to be a boon for the mafia. The ban did not work but got the mafia rich, giving them the resources to expand their crime base.

And why? Because the consumer base wanted alcohol and were willing to break the law to obtain it, just like they do when they buy pot or crack. The same thing applies to guns. Those who are willing to break the law to obtain them will obtain them.

However, partial bans on guns have been applied in 23 out of the 24 richest countries, and in each case the ban worked.

No, it has not. Not only does each and every one of those countries, and every other country on the face of the earth have a non-zero illegal firearms offense record, but in most of those countries the violent crime rate goes UP not down when citizens are debarred the use of arms for self-defense.

As a result of that, the one nation that did not apply a partial gun ban has 85% of all firearms murders of all 24 richest nations put together.

So empirical results show that banning alcohol fails, but a partial ban on guns works, and massively reduces murder rates.

Problem is you've already stated and admitted that the prevalence of guns in the hands of the law abiding has NO EFFECT on firearms murder rates, which means that gun bans don't work because we have many more guns, including handguns, and a rapidly declining violent crime rate.

What's obviously important is keeping all arms out of the hands of lawbreakers...and one way to dissuade them from committing violent crimes is to make them afraid that the next time they do so they will be shot dead. Our 30 year experiment here in the US with concealed carry proves this conclusively: More guns, less crime.

[Blind groper]

Seth

Increasing hand gun ownership increases murder rates. This is clearly shown by the difference in murder rates from country to country. Owning a hand gun, as reported by the NEJM, increases the odds of the gun owner being murdered, often with his own gun.

[Collector1337]

A difference between guns and alcohol.

Both cause enormous amounts of harm, and undoubtedly, humanity would be better off if neither existed.

How so?

[Seth]

Seth

Increasing hand gun ownership increases murder rates.

Except it doesn't, as you yourself have admitted. The murder rate in the US continues to decline despite there being many more millions of handguns in circulation. Your claim is quite simply false.

This is clearly shown by the difference in murder rates from country to country.

Except that it's not. Talk about trying to compare apples and oranges, you are trying to use data from nations which have NOT HAD an increase in lawful handgun ownership to reason that more handguns equals more murders. But it's demonstrably true that in the US, which DOES have a rapidly increasing number of handguns (thanks to the best gun salesman in the world; Barack Obama) the murder rate CONTINUES to decline, quite rapidly in fact. And it declines FASTER in places where it is legal for law-abiding citizens to carry concealed handguns.

If your premise were true in even the slightest degree, our murder rate would be skyrocketing with the injection of more handguns into our society. But the opposite is happening, which completely debunks and destroys your premise.

Owning a hand gun, as reported by the NEJM, increases the odds of the gun owner being murdered, often with his own gun.

If you believe the NEJM, which I don't.