Vigilante

[Seth]

And the police were where, exactly, while this poor guy was getting beaten nearly to death?

Rhetorical question.

Answer: Not there.

Coupla rounds into the instigators might have sent the rest running. Usually does.

[piscator]

And the police were where, exactly, while this poor guy was getting beaten nearly to death?

Rhetorical question.

Answer: Not there.

Coupla rounds into the instigators might have sent the rest running. Usually does.

All I can say is it's a gosh darn good thing none of those vigilantes 'instigators' used firearms, as carried away as they got.

[Seth]

And the police were where, exactly, while this poor guy was getting beaten nearly to death?

Rhetorical question.

Answer: Not there.

Coupla rounds into the instigators might have sent the rest running. Usually does.

All I can say is it's a gosh darn good thing none of those vigilantes 'instigators' used firearms, as carried away as they got.

Er, the point is that any one of them COULD have shot the guy...with their illegally-possessed gun that they didn't register and didn't have a background check to acquire...and some folks here would strip the victim of the right to be LEGALLY armed for self defense.

[Gallstones]

This is tragic and heartbreaking.
I hope Kaarma and his GF are convicted and go to prison.

Every law abiding gun owner, firearms enthusiast and Second Amendment supporter should speak against MK and shun him with prejudice.

Missoula man shoots and kills 17 yo German exchange student

A western Montana man has been charged in the shooting death of a 17-year-old boy after prosecutors said he set a trap in his garage to catch any would-be burglars because he was frustrated over recent thefts.

Complaint against Kaarma (pdf)

[Hermit]

This is tragic and heartbreaking.
I hope Kaarma and his GF are convicted and go to prison.

Every law abiding gun owner, firearms enthusiast and Second Amendment supporter should speak against MK and shun him with prejudice.

Missoula man shoots and kills 17 yo German exchange student

A western Montana man has been charged in the shooting death of a 17-year-old boy after prosecutors said he set a trap in his garage to catch any would-be burglars because he was frustrated over recent thefts.

Complaint against Kaarma (pdf)

Yabbut wasn't he just standing his ground?

[JimC]

This is tragic and heartbreaking.
I hope Kaarma and his GF are convicted and go to prison.

Every law abiding gun owner, firearms enthusiast and Second Amendment supporter should speak against MK and shun him with prejudice.

Missoula man shoots and kills 17 yo German exchange student

A western Montana man has been charged in the shooting death of a 17-year-old boy after prosecutors said he set a trap in his garage to catch any would-be burglars because he was frustrated over recent thefts.

Complaint against Kaarma (pdf)

Yabbut wasn't he just standing his ground?

It's interesting to see the ethical lines drawn by the gun lobby...

I mean, I agree with Gallstones that this was an appalling act, but it is simply a logical extension of the apparent right to shoot any intruder if you have the slightest fear for your safety...

[Hermit]

This is tragic and heartbreaking.
I hope Kaarma and his GF are convicted and go to prison.

Every law abiding gun owner, firearms enthusiast and Second Amendment supporter should speak against MK and shun him with prejudice.

Missoula man shoots and kills 17 yo German exchange student

A western Montana man has been charged in the shooting death of a 17-year-old boy after prosecutors said he set a trap in his garage to catch any would-be burglars because he was frustrated over recent thefts.

Complaint against Kaarma (pdf)

Yabbut wasn't he just standing his ground?

It's interesting to see the ethical lines drawn by the gun lobby...

I mean, I agree with Gallstones that this was an appalling act, but it is simply a logical extension of the apparent right to shoot any intruder if you have the slightest fear for your safety...

That's exactly what I'm getting at. I recall the occasion where a man felt threatened by a bunch of teenagers who drove past his home in a car and shot at them. He missed, killing someone else who happened to be driving past in another car instead. He was not charged with anything at all because he was exercising his right of standing his ground. Bad luck for the innocent passer-by, I suppose, but a similar case can be made for the murder Gallstone linked to.

[Seth]

This is tragic and heartbreaking.
I hope Kaarma and his GF are convicted and go to prison.

Every law abiding gun owner, firearms enthusiast and Second Amendment supporter should speak against MK and shun him with prejudice.

Missoula man shoots and kills 17 yo German exchange student

A western Montana man has been charged in the shooting death of a 17-year-old boy after prosecutors said he set a trap in his garage to catch any would-be burglars because he was frustrated over recent thefts.

Complaint against Kaarma (pdf)

Yabbut wasn't he just standing his ground?

It's interesting to see the ethical lines drawn by the gun lobby...

I mean, I agree with Gallstones that this was an appalling act, but it is simply a logical extension of the apparent right to shoot any intruder if you have the slightest fear for your safety...

That's exactly what I'm getting at. I recall the occasion where a man felt threatened by a bunch of teenagers who drove past his home in a car and shot at them. He missed, killing someone else who happened to be driving past in another car instead. He was not charged with anything at all because he was exercising his right of standing his ground. Bad luck for the innocent passer-by, I suppose, but a similar case can be made for the murder Gallstone linked to.

This isnt' about shooting at passing cars, this is about shooting at two intruders inside the man's home.

Funny how nobody has anything to say about the intruders such as, "what the fuck were they doing in someone else's garage in the middle of the night?"

Seminary student my ass.

Don't want to get shot, don't invade people's homes. Pretty simple really.

The fact that he showed premeditation is irrelevant. Anybody who keeps a firearm for self-defense has "premeditated" killing someone...if and when legally justified in doing so. And the fact that the police will these days do nothing when it comes to such crimes leaves citizens to enforce the law themselves, as is their right. Would have been nice if the thieves had immediately surrendered so they could be arrested and taken to jail, but they didn't. Sucks to be them.

45-3-103. Use of force in defense of occupied structure. (1) A person is justified in the use of force or threat to use force against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that the use of force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry into or attack upon an occupied structure.

(2) A person justified in the use of force pursuant to subsection (1) is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or serious bodily harm only if:

(a) the entry is made or attempted and the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent an assault upon the person or another then in the occupied structure; or

(b) the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony in the occupied structure.

The question for the court will be whether or not he reasonably believed that the intruders were committing a forcible felony. Sub (a) is problematic because technically both persons who were "occupying" the structure were outside of the garage and arguably were not "then in the occupied structure." This might or might not mas sub (a) inapplicable, it's an interesting legal quirk.

There was no "trap" set at all. All he did was install motion detectors and cameras. When I first read the headline I thought he had built a "set-gun," which is an unattended firearm set to discharge with a tripwire or some such mechanism, which is illegal everywhere I know of.

But in this case, just like the cops sending out undercover officers dressed as prostitutes to troll for johns, it's not "entrapment" because the law is very clear that merely providing the opportunity for a person to commit an illegal act is not entrapping them. The law says that if he wants to leave his garage open with a pile of gold bars sitting on the floor he's still within his rights to use force to prevent theft, and anybody who steals anything from his property is guilty of a crime, no matter how "careless" or even deliberately enticing the owner may be.

You do the crime, you do the time.

[Hermit]

In order to get away from the possible focus of a nuclear conflagration during the cold war, my parents decided to emigrate. The original plan was to move to the US. I cannot begin to describe how happy I am that they changed their mind and we settled in Australia instead.

[JimC]

I'm glad we have, in the form of Gallstones, a moderate in the US gun debate...

[Seth]

In order to get away from the possible focus of a nuclear conflagration during the cold war, my parents decided to emigrate. The original plan was to move to the US. I cannot begin to describe how happy I am that they changed their mind and we settled in Australia instead.

I'm happy too, we don't need your kind in the US! Can we please send all the liberals, progressives and socialists down under...one way or another?

[piscator]

I see the usual shithawk has swooped in to assume another set of ex recto legal assertions and asseverations concerning the subject of premeditation.

Set guns have been textbook examples of premeditation and aggravating factors in US criminal law for at least a century. It's against the law to murder a squirrel with a set gun in all 50 States, much less a human being. :puke:

[piscator]

This is tragic and heartbreaking.
I hope Kaarma and his GF are convicted and go to prison.

Every law abiding gun owner, firearms enthusiast and Second Amendment supporter should speak against MK and shun him with prejudice.

Missoula man shoots and kills 17 yo German exchange student

A western Montana man has been charged in the shooting death of a 17-year-old boy after prosecutors said he set a trap in his garage to catch any would-be burglars because he was frustrated over recent thefts.

Complaint against Kaarma (pdf)

Yabbut wasn't he just standing his ground?

It's interesting to see the ethical lines drawn by the gun lobby...

I mean, I agree with Gallstones that this was an appalling act, but it is simply a logical extension of the apparent right to shoot any intruder if you have the slightest fear for your safety...

That's exactly what I'm getting at. I recall the occasion where a man felt threatened by a bunch of teenagers who drove past his home in a car and shot at them. He missed, killing someone else who happened to be driving past in another car instead. He was not charged with anything at all because he was exercising his right of standing his ground. Bad luck for the innocent passer-by, I suppose, but a similar case can be made for the murder Gallstone linked to.

Different things entirely. The first is a wrongful death, a mostly civil matter. The set gun ambush is a classic example of premeditated murder, a decidedly criminal act. A set gun is a land mine.

[Seth]

I see the usual shithawk has swooped in to assume another set of ex recto legal assertions and asseverations concerning the subject of premeditation.

Set guns have been textbook examples of premeditation and aggravating factors in US criminal law for at least a century. It's against the law to murder a squirrel with a set gun in all 50 States, much less a human being. :puke:

Er, I said that, explicitly, you dunce. As usual you went into apoplexy when you saw the words "set-gun" and didn't bother to read the rest.

This wasn't a set-gun situation.

On another note, a homeowner in Minnesota who shot two teenagers in his basement on Thanksgiving day, 2012, was convicted Tuesday of premeditated murder, the Associated Press reports.

So, as I actually said, it will depend on whether a jury decides that in this case the shooter's fear was "reasonable" and his actions "appropriate."

That's why we have a court system, don't you see...

[piscator]

Not that I recall ever going into apoplexy over the words "set gun", but why would you think my use of the term "Shithawk" refers to you?


Setting a shotgun to fire unattended or remotely is ipso facto premeditation, on par with setting ambush or an IED. That's how the jury will hear it from the prosecution if you ever use one.