NRA

[Hermit]

I don't worry about what they say, I only worry about results. You got Republican idiots, you got Democrat idiots, and they do exactly the same things when they get stuck into the trough - feather their own nests, feather their buddie's nests, fuck over ordinary people, drop bombs on other ordinary people, whore for corporations, suck banker dick, and generally behave like the power-mad, psychopathic narcissists they are. Hillary or Trump, what's the fucking difference? At least Trump's amusing, I'd honestly have to (cordless) power drill my ears if I had to listen to Hillary braying on TV 24/7. Then there's Bernie, when he's not hanging around in one of his vacation houses, wanking over that Ocasio-Cortez bint with all the teeth. She's just so dreadfully earnest, you know?

The situation is somewhat similar in Australia, but there is enough difference to get out of bed on election day to vote. The difference between what John Howard did to the personal income tax scales in 2004 and how Kevin Rudd changed them in 2012 is reason enough on its own.

Hermit, the reason Leeds et. al. haven't devolved into Chicago is they don't have guns. I don't think there's any mystery there. They do still kill the fuck out of each other, they just aren't as efficient at it. But it is what it is, as me Ol' Da used to say. It ain't changing, and anyone who thinks it will is deluded. Still like the Titusville guy, though. Happiness is a warm .357.

Yair, fair enough. I was just mystified about how/why you segued from Titusville to Chicago. Meanwhile I looked up some murder statistics. Apparently, they stood at about 24/100,000 last year, but that rate has dropped significantly so far this year. Wollongong, with a population of a bit under 300,000 would have had about 66 murders per year. Between January 2013 and December 2017 it had 10. In that time prosecutions for assaulting police had risen 14%, though and for possession or use of pot they went up by 8%.

[Scot Dutchy]

Comparing crime stats like any stats is a minefield.

[Hermit]

What this seems to imply is something I've said in a pessimistic way in various posts; once you have a situation where a society (such as the US) is saturated with guns (particularly hand guns) there is virtually no way back, and it may often be the case that possessing a gun yourself makes sense. To me, that's all the more reason to cling as determinedly as we can to a low gun density society...

You're right on both counts. To me it's one of the main reasons why I am determined to never set foot on US soil. Though almost all denizens of the US that I have personally met are very nice people indeed, I dread the thought of experiencing their native habitat. Poisonous spiders, drop bears, potatohead Dutton, Senator Leyonhjelm and Aussie Rules are tolerable in comparison.

[Hermit]

Comparing crime stats like any stats is a minefield.

You can argue about stats. That's not something that can be said about hot air emanating from mouths of people, even if they live in the best nation on earth.

[JimC]

What this seems to imply is something I've said in a pessimistic way in various posts; once you have a situation where a society (such as the US) is saturated with guns (particularly hand guns) there is virtually no way back, and it may often be the case that possessing a gun yourself makes sense. To me, that's all the more reason to cling as determinedly as we can to a low gun density society...

You're right on both counts. To me it's one of the main reasons why I am determined to never set foot on US soil. Though almost all denizens of the US that I have personally met are very nice people indeed, I dread the thought of experiencing their native habitat. Poisonous spiders, drop bears, potatohead Dutton, Senator Leyonhjelm and Aussie Rules are tolerable in comparison.

However, I suspect that one's chances of being killed by gunfire in the US are very context dependant. In white, middle class American suburbs, maybe not that high. In other areas, or if you are black and don't say "yes massa" to the cops, a lot higher...

[Scot Dutchy]

What this seems to imply is something I've said in a pessimistic way in various posts; once you have a situation where a society (such as the US) is saturated with guns (particularly hand guns) there is virtually no way back, and it may often be the case that possessing a gun yourself makes sense. To me, that's all the more reason to cling as determinedly as we can to a low gun density society...

You're right on both counts. To me it's one of the main reasons why I am determined to never set foot on US soil. Though almost all denizens of the US that I have personally met are very nice people indeed, I dread the thought of experiencing their native habitat. Poisonous spiders, drop bears, potatohead Dutton, Senator Leyonhjelm and Aussie Rules are tolerable in comparison.

Well I would avoid the lot. I will never visit America. I did once a transfer in Washington to Mexico. That was a bad enough experience. Never met border guards like them. The ones in Communist Czechoslovakia were super polite in comparison.

[Hermit]

What this seems to imply is something I've said in a pessimistic way in various posts; once you have a situation where a society (such as the US) is saturated with guns (particularly hand guns) there is virtually no way back, and it may often be the case that possessing a gun yourself makes sense. To me, that's all the more reason to cling as determinedly as we can to a low gun density society...

You're right on both counts. To me it's one of the main reasons why I am determined to never set foot on US soil. Though almost all denizens of the US that I have personally met are very nice people indeed, I dread the thought of experiencing their native habitat. Poisonous spiders, drop bears, potatohead Dutton, Senator Leyonhjelm and Aussie Rules are tolerable in comparison.

However, I suspect that one's chances of being killed by gunfire in the US are very context dependant. In white, middle class American suburbs, maybe not that high. In other areas, or if you are black and don't say "yes massa" to the cops, a lot higher...

However? The same can be said about Australia. White, middle class Australian suburbanites stand much less of a chance of being murdered or accidentally killed than our US counterparts. Same goes for our gang members and organised crime figures, and yes, that's despite the Melbourne gangland killings that took 36 organised crime figures out of circulation between 1998 and 2010 and the Milperra massacre that took the lives of four Comancheros, two Bandidos and one innocent bystander.

As for our Aborigines, the rate of deaths in custody is truly outrageous, but those deaths are not due to murder or homicide. Though worrying, the fact that their average life expectancy is 10 years lower than ours is a big, black blot on our society.

[Cunt]

I guess it basically comes down to whether or not you believe that you have the right to defend yourself, or instead you believe that only the authorities have the right to defend you.

Guns or no guns, I like protecting the individuals right to self-defense.

Anti-gun advocates aren't really anti-gun, they just want the guns held ONLY by the authorities. (at least most of the ones I have met)

[Tero]

The statistics have nothing to do with defending. Murders are rare. Enthusiasts shooting the "guy in my apartment" is every week.

[Svartalf]

I guess it basically comes down to whether or not you believe that you have the right to defend yourself, or instead you believe that only the authorities have the right to defend you.

Guns or no guns, I like protecting the individuals right to self-defense.

Anti-gun advocates aren't really anti-gun, they just want the guns held ONLY by the authorities. (at least most of the ones I have met)

and given how available and respectul of your rights the authorities are, I'd much rather be allowed to defend myself...

[Brian Peacock]

The only thing I have to defend myself with is my innate charm, a rapier wit, a willingness to put aside my ego in a confrontation, and a black belt in Goju-ryu. Thus far I've only had to employ the first three items on that list - which is good, because I haven't done any karate training for years and years.

[Cunt]

The statistics have nothing to do with defending. Murders are rare. Enthusiasts shooting the "guy in my apartment" is every week.

The statistics are meaningless to the main question.

Do you think people should have the right to defend themselves?

[Tero]

Sure. All the knives and axes you like, maybe even a crossbow. No handguns. I have a hard time taking cover from those.

[Cunt]

The only thing I have to defend myself with is my my innate charm, rapier wit, a willingness to put aside my ego in a confrontation, and a black belt in Goju-ryu. Thus far I've only had to employ the first three items on that list - which is good, because I haven't done any karate training for years and years.

One of my brothers has practiced regularly for 20 years or so. I should go thump around with him next time I'm in the city. Trouble is, he is the biggest brother, and at 185cm, I'm the littlest. Even before he took up the funny pajamas, it was a struggle to keep up with the big galoot...

[Cunt]

Sure.

This is how you really feel, I bet.
I agree with you about this part, by the way.

Now, on to the part where you and I don't understand each other...

All the knives and axes you like, maybe even a crossbow. No handguns. I have a hard time taking cover from those.

I get that you are joking about taking cover, but by saying 'no handguns', you are making an impossible and strange distinction about firearms.
Never mind that, though. When you say 'no handguns', do you mean police? Private security such as Brinks? Retired marines heading to the shooting range to practice?