Idiots

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Seth
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Re: Idiots

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:49 am

Blind groper wrote:Seth has selective blindness.
Pot, kettle, black.
I have already pointed out that the most successful campaigns to end oppression are those that do NOT involve guns, such as Mahatma Gandhi, and the campaigns in Myanmar, Tunisia, Egypt, Botswana and so on. The campaigns that DO involve guns end in long term civil wars that destroy economies and kill thousands of people. Guns cause very bad outcomes.
Well, you have made that claim, which is as usual full of shit and largely untrue, and in doing so you've simply ignored the one hundred million people killed by tyrants and despots who first disarmed them and then killed them.
On DGU's
I have been threatened several times in my adult life, and never needed a gun.


And you think that supports an argument that nobody else has? What about this guy? He sure as fuck could have used a gun.
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I have friends who have told me of their experiences being threatened, and they did not need a gun either.
Lucky them. Millions of other people haven't been so lucky, like this guy:
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My guess, based on the range of similar experiences, is that only in one case in a thousand is a gun actually needed when threatened.
And your guess comes right out of your ass with the rest of your crap and has absolutely no foundation or support in part because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about when it comes to self-defense, particularly armed self defense and when it's needed because you're a non-gun-owning tactically illiterate, strategically idiotic, defense practice and procedure bereft know-nothing who loves to make ex-recto comments that sound good but mean nothing.
In the other 999 cases out of 1000, the outcome is better when no guns are involved.
Your opinion, like the asshole your head routinely inhabits, is noted. Here's hoping that somebody does this to you so we can see if you walk the walk or just talk the talk.
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"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Idiots

Post by JimC » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:05 am

Fucking lunatic Americans, yet more people slaughtered in a society where you can get an assault rifle as easy as buying a tube of toothpaste...

Didn't notice any square-jawed private citizen filling the miscreant with lead...
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Re: Idiots

Post by Blind groper » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:39 am

Good point, Jim.

According to the news, there were 200 people in the vicinity. At least one must have been carrying a gun. But no heroes came to the rescue.

More guns mean more deaths. I have shown that with no fewer than 7 different studies, yet Seth continues to live in his fairyland where guns are good.

He thinks that flashing a picture of a guy badly beaten is evidence. That shows how impoverished his idea of evidence really is!

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Re: Idiots

Post by Jason » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:14 pm

Śiva wrote:
Seth wrote:
Śiva wrote:
Seth wrote:
Śiva wrote:Just answer the question. Are the citizens of Paris, hell might as well say all of France, responsible for those 130 dead or not?
If they advocated for or supported disarming the law-abiding citizenry, then yes. Those who advocate for and support ARMING the law-abiding citizenry, and those who actually lawfully carry arms are the only ones not culpable.
That's a yes. Seth holds all those who do not support arming citizenry responsible for the crimes that occur in their society. That's something new.

Citizens are ultimately responsible for their government then?
Indeed, since all power and authority granted to government comes from the People to begin with.
Are not the American citizens who support maintaining your right to bear arms in the face of massacres like Sandy Hook responsible for all those dead then?
Seth wrote:No, just the ones who want to disarm law-abiding citizens.
You're hopeless. I could lead you farther down this Socratic trap, but why.. just for more special pleading? Fook it. Get thee to a university.

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Re: Idiots

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:43 pm

Śiva wrote:
You're hopeless. I could lead you farther down this Socratic trap, but why.. just for more special pleading? Fook it. Get thee to a university.
You could try, but I doubt you'd be successful. I'm way better at it than you are. Also, I have facts and the truth on my side.

By the way, it's not special pleading, it's categorization. The moral opprobrium applies to one particular category of persons and not another because of the actions of those in that category. Special pleading requires that both be in the same category and that the exclusion apply for no reason other than one individual's claimed exempt status.

But if persons in a class are in fact exempt, then special pleading does not apply.

Those who do not advocate for or support the disarming of other individuals are not morally liable for injuries or deaths that might have been prevented if the victims had been armed because they respect the right of each individual to decide for themselves whether or not, and to what extent they desire or need to carry effective tools of self defense.

Those who do advocate for or support the disarming of other individuals are morally culpable for harm that comes to anyone who might have gone unharmed if they had been armed because, quite obviously, their support for and advocacy contributes to the inability of all persons to be effectively armed for self defense. If any person is going to participate in any way in disarming some other individual, other than themselves then they take up the moral and ethical burden of providing for the safety of any such disarmed individual and they take up the moral and ethical burden for any and all injuries or deaths that could have been prevented had they not interfered with the individual, natural and unalienable right to keep and bear arms.

You don't get to say "You cannot carry a gun in public" and then say "It's not my fault that you got robbed and beaten up" because it IS your fault if I cannot defend myself due to your interference with my rights.

And let me make this clear, the peaceable exercise of my RKBA does not interfere with any of your rights, and therefore there is no justification for infringing upon it.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Idiots

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:49 pm

JimC wrote:Fucking lunatic Americans, yet more people slaughtered in a society where you can get an assault rifle as easy as buying a tube of toothpaste...
Er, you're lying again.
Didn't notice any square-jawed private citizen filling the miscreant with lead...
That's because all of California is essentially a "gun-free zone" and the killers knew that, it being quite rare that anyone other than a police officer is armed in public anywhere in California. Being a public building, California law further prohibits anyone from carrying a firearm into it...which didn't stop the terrorists, did it?

And as I have said time and time again, when the murderous Islamic jihadists are snapping off the safeties of their illegally-acquired firearms and are instants away from opening fire, the police are only minutes away. And, once again, in that period the killers completed their killing before the police arrived.

So, for the victims in that attack, all of the guns the police have were utterly and completely useless and ineffective, and nobody but the killers in the room had a gun with which to respond.

And this is what's going to continue to happen all over the US as Islamic terrorists open their new front. They will choose "gun-free zones" where firearms are prohibited, like shopping malls and movie theaters and public buildings, as their targets for attack.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Idiots

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:55 pm

Blind groper wrote:Good point, Jim.

According to the news, there were 200 people in the vicinity. At least one must have been carrying a gun. But no heroes came to the rescue.
It's California, where open carry is prohibited entirely and concealed carry is incredibly rare, especially anywhere near LA, because CCW permits are discretionary-issue and law enforcement in California is lead by leftist anti-gun chiefs and sheriffs who refuse to issue such permits, so while nationwide the percentage of armed citizens is on average about five percent, in California that average is well below one percent, which explains why nobody in that group had a gun.

When the percentage of law-abiding citizens carrying guns in public reaches 50 percent, such things will be much less likely to happen, as is the case in Israel.
More guns mean more deaths.


Er, as you just said above, the problem here was not "more guns" the problem was quite clearly not enough guns in the right place in the right hands at the right time, in the precious few seconds when a gun could have made a real difference in the body count.

There were lots of guns shortly thereafter, on a highway, where the police fired more than 300 rounds and killed the terrorists quickly, but they didn't do a damned thing to protect the government-disarmed people at the original attack site, which the terrorists knew would likely be the case, which is likely why they chose that venue in the first place. So, you're still full of shit.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Idiots

Post by Jason » Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:50 pm

Seth wrote:
Śiva wrote:
You're hopeless. I could lead you farther down this Socratic trap, but why.. just for more special pleading? Fook it. Get thee to a university.
You could try, but I doubt you'd be successful. I'm way better at it than you are. Also, I have facts and the truth on my side.
:hilarious: Better at it than me? I already have you trapped in a logical puzzle. You're too dumb to know it. Forget it, I'm not wasting time trying to illuminate your idiocy for you anymore.

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Re: Idiots

Post by JimC » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:42 am

"Truth, Justice and the American Sethian way"
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

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Re: Idiots

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:15 am

Śiva wrote:
Seth wrote:
Śiva wrote:
You're hopeless. I could lead you farther down this Socratic trap, but why.. just for more special pleading? Fook it. Get thee to a university.
You could try, but I doubt you'd be successful. I'm way better at it than you are. Also, I have facts and the truth on my side.
:hilarious: Better at it than me? I already have you trapped in a logical puzzle. You're too dumb to know it. Forget it, I'm not wasting time trying to illuminate your idiocy for you anymore.
In other words, you're lying and are admitting intellectual defeat. Thanks. I win! :cheer:
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Idiots

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:15 am

Seth wrote:
Those who do advocate for or support the disarming of other individuals are morally culpable for harm that comes to anyone who might have gone unharmed if
they had been armed because quite obviously their support for and advocacy contributes to the inability of all persons to be effectively armed for self defense
If any person is going to participate in any way in disarming some other individual other than themselves then they take up the moral and ethical burden of
providing for the safety of any such disarmed individual and they take up the moral and ethical burden for any and all injuries or deaths that could have been
prevented had they not interfered with the individual natural and unalienable right to keep and bear arms
Where do you stand on personal responsibility? Do you think that non gun owners should have the right to equal compensation as much as gun owners who get shot? Or should gun owners have more compensation because they took adequate precautions? Why would you not make it a criminal offence for law abiding citizens to carry a gun at all times in public and to have guns in their homes? Where do you draw the line at gun ownership? Would you restrict that to law abiding citizens and the police and army but no one else? If someone has no criminal record and then commits a crime should they be banned from having legal possession of a gun even temporarily? If someone is prescribed mentally ill should they be banned for life for having legal possession of a gun? Should there be a statue of limitations on justifiable homicide with a gun? For example : if a woman kills a man that raped her then how long a period of time should pass after the rape happened before she could be charged with murder? Or should she be legally permitted to kill him anyway? How would you deal with organised crime that has no respect for the law and very easy access to guns?
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Re: Idiots

Post by Jason » Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:00 pm

Seth wrote:
Śiva wrote:
Seth wrote:
Śiva wrote:
You're hopeless. I could lead you farther down this Socratic trap, but why.. just for more special pleading? Fook it. Get thee to a university.
You could try, but I doubt you'd be successful. I'm way better at it than you are. Also, I have facts and the truth on my side.
:hilarious: Better at it than me? I already have you trapped in a logical puzzle. You're too dumb to know it. Forget it, I'm not wasting time trying to illuminate your idiocy for you anymore.
In other words, you're lying and are admitting intellectual defeat. Thanks. I win! :cheer:
No. I'm not lying. I am resigning from this silly game of "Seth willfully remains ignorant forever. Na na na boo boo."

Hardly an intellectual defeat.

Yes. You win. Na na na boo boo.

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Re: Idiots

Post by Calilasseia » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:18 pm


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Re: Idiots

Post by Blind groper » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:42 pm

Calilassea

I never knew Seth looked that handsome!

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Re: Idiots

Post by Seth » Fri Dec 04, 2015 10:42 pm

surreptitious57 wrote: Where do you stand on personal responsibility?
As a law-abiding gun owner I am personally and completely responsible for where each and every bullet I fire ends up.
Do you think that non gun owners should have the right to equal compensation as much as gun owners who get shot?
Not sure what you mean by this, but non-gun owners have recourse to the same civil law system as anybody else and are entitled to the same degree of compensation as is anyone else for a wrongful injury or death, regardless of the implement of injury.
Or should gun owners have more compensation because they took adequate precautions?
I don't understand what you mean.
Why would you not make it a criminal offence for law abiding citizens to carry a gun at all times in public and to have guns in their homes?
Because carrying a gun is a public safety neutral activity that poses no more risk to others than any other peaceable activity like driving a car or hitting golf balls.
Where do you draw the line at gun ownership?
At illegal use of any firearm.
Would you restrict that to law abiding citizens and the police and army but no one else?
Yes.
If someone has no criminal record and then commits a crime should they be banned from having legal possession of a gun even temporarily?
Yes, and they already are.
If someone is prescribed mentally ill should they be banned for life for having legal possession of a gun?
No. This is because "mentally ill" means many different things, some of which are a permanent risk and some of which are a temporary risk. Certainly banning possession of firearms while one is currently adjudicated, after due process, of a mental illness that would create a risk to the patient or others should the individual have a gun is perfectly appropriate. But, by way of example only, a temporary bout of depression being treated by a physician where there is no evidence that the individual poses a risk to himself or others certainly should not result in a lifetime gun ban. On the other hand, a person diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia with delusions who has evidenced violent behavior and is on medication should probably not possess firearms, but that decision is up to a judge, in a courtroom, after the application of due process, not as a simple matter of allegedly suffering from some mental illness.

So long as the process for denying someone's RKBA involves credible medical testimony and due process before a judge or jury, then constraining an individual's gun rights is acceptable. What is not acceptable is generalized laws that say, for example, "if you are consulting a psychologist or psychiatrist and are using medication prescribed by a doctor for any mental condition you are barred from possessing firearms for life." That's how the democrat party wants to revise the current law, which says that if you have been "involuntarily committed to a mental health institution" your gun rights are gone forever, which law is itself entirely unconstitutional as it does not meet the Lemon Test for strict scrutiny of laws which deny fundamental rights.
Should there be a statue of limitations on justifiable homicide with a gun? For example : if a woman kills a man that raped her then how long a period of time should pass after the rape happened before she could be charged with murder?
Yes. The laws regarding the use of deadly physical force are quite specific. In order to justifiably kill someone the threat to you or another person must be both imminent and risk death or serious bodily harm. You are not required to retreat (in my state anyway), but if you escape the situation you cannot come back later and kill the attacker out of revenge or anger. The law requires that if the threat is not both imminent and serious enough to justify the immediate use of deadly physical force then one is obliged to go to the police and handle the matter through the police and the courts and not resort to "vigilante justice" by trying to administer punishment yourself.
Or should she be legally permitted to kill him anyway?
No, not in the scenario you posit.
How would you deal with organised crime that has no respect for the law and very easy access to guns?
Put them in jail or execute them according to the law and add substantial additional penalties for possessing a firearm while committing a crime.

Wait...that's how the law already reads, so never mind.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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