Why did Hitler not fuck Britain before invading Russia?

[laklak]

Didja miss the point much? No shouldas, wouldas, or couldas. My point is that the decision to invade Russia was not a stupid mistake but a calculated strategic decision. Sure it failed. But only by about a month and 20 miles. A for effort.

[Hermit]

Didja miss the point much? No shouldas, wouldas, or couldas.

You said Hitler should have gone for Moscow instead of the Ukrainian oil fields and that's how he could have won.

Incidentally, I argued in the post above that taking Moscow would not have resulted in a win by Germany, and I provided the reasons why it would not. Yes, I know that means I was lowering myself to the level of discussing hypotheticals. Sorry about that. Sometimes that sort of thing is difficult to avoid.

[klr]

In order to invade Britain, Hitler would have needed completely different equipment to that which he used to conquer the rest of Europe - to whit, landing craft in great numbers. An air invasion could not have planted enough troops, quickly enough, to establish a beachhead - and, even if it could, that beachhead would be cut off from his power-base!

So he played for time and became overtaken by events when Stalin grew ever more greedy and bossy.

At least, that's how I see it. Your mileage may vary...

A more powerful navy would also have helped.

IIRC, he always wanted to invade the Soviet Union, and even before he formally called off the invasion against Britain, he had already put the wheels in motion for Barbarossa.

[klr]

You'd do better to forget about what might have been and focus on what actually was. Perhaps then you would not need to ask the question "why the fuck did Hitler give up on defeating Britain before attacking Russia?" If you study what actually happened, you'd soon discover the answer.

You're making it sound as though Hitler acted correctly/objectively within the context of achieving an overall victory. That is very much questionable.

Whether Hitler's actions were "correct" is easily ascertained by looking at the results of his actions. He set out to conquer the world and finished up 10 metres below ground level of the totally destroyed capital of his totally destroyed nation, chasing a bullet through his skull a few hours before the victorious enemy would have dragged him out of his hidey hole that made his previous redoubt, the Wolfschanze, appear positively palatial, and hung him up by his balls.

Of course he never took responsibility for his failures. As far as he was concerned, his people failed him and his generals betrayed him. As the self-proclaimed GröFaZ he should have shouldered the lot. Any leader is responsible for what his underlings do, and especially so the greatest one of all times.

I neither said nor implied what you read into my words.

GröFaZ ... it's been a long time since I heard that term.

Anyway, why should we demand of Hitler that he should be logical? The vast bulk of what he thought, said and did was bonkers.

[jamest]

Anyway, why should we demand of Hitler that he should be logical? The vast bulk of what he thought, said and did was bonkers.

I'm not sure that this judgement applies to too many military decisions, other than a failure to follow through on Operation Sealion (Battle of Britain). Certainly, militarily, Germany was 'flying' in the early years of the war (notwithstanding pre-war) when they were on the front foot.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Anyway, why should we demand of Hitler that he should be logical? The vast bulk of what he thought, said and did was bonkers.

I'm not sure that this applies to too many military decisions, other than a failure to follow through on Operation Sealion (Battle of Britain). Certainly, militarily, Germany was 'flying' in the early years of the war (notwithstanding pre-war) when they were on the front foot.

They came up with a brand-new tactic (blitzkrieg) and built up a formidable array of manpower and equipment, tailor-made to support it. It took everyone by surprise at first. The trouble with tactics though, is that they become far less useful as soon as counter-tactics are devised. That's where you need long-term strategies and alternative tactics. Adolf and his boys kinda sucked on that front...

[jamest]

Anyway, why should we demand of Hitler that he should be logical? The vast bulk of what he thought, said and did was bonkers.

I'm not sure that this applies to too many military decisions, other than a failure to follow through on Operation Sealion (Battle of Britain). Certainly, militarily, Germany was 'flying' in the early years of the war (notwithstanding pre-war) when they were on the front foot.

They came up with a brand-new tactic (blitzkrieg) and built up a formidable array of manpower and equipment, tailor-made to support it. It took everyone by surprise at first.

If you're bonkers, you can fuck anything up. For example, if he was bonkers he could have ignored the new tactics and ordered the German soldiers to casually stroll across no-mans land towards the Maginot Line, as the French seemingly expected the Germans to do.

Hitler fucked a lot of things up, but militarily he wasn't that far off the mark.

The trouble with tactics though, is that they become far less useful as soon as counter-tactics are devised. That's where you need long-term strategies and alternative tactics. Adolf and his boys kinda sucked on that front...

The war was effectively lost before the end of 1941 (they had to reach Moscow by then, at least, if not the Ural mountains). And the primary reasons for that were the Russian winter and supply problems, not the Russian army. The bottom-line was the limited time they gave themselves to achieve their objectives. To invade Russia in late June was a terrible mistake. He should have postponed until they were actually ready, to mid/late April or early May of 1942. Those extra couple of months may have made all the difference, but we'll never know. Plus, they could have sorted Britain out in the interim, with all of the positive and significant benefits that would have entailed, which I mentioned yesterday.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Anyway, why should we demand of Hitler that he should be logical? The vast bulk of what he thought, said and did was bonkers.

I'm not sure that this applies to too many military decisions, other than a failure to follow through on Operation Sealion (Battle of Britain). Certainly, militarily, Germany was 'flying' in the early years of the war (notwithstanding pre-war) when they were on the front foot.

They came up with a brand-new tactic (blitzkrieg) and built up a formidable array of manpower and equipment, tailor-made to support it. It took everyone by surprise at first.

If you're bonkers, you can fuck anything up. For example, if he was bonkers he could have ignored the new tactics and ordered the German soldiers to casually stroll across no-mans land towards the Maginot Line, as the French seemingly expected the Germans to do.

Hitler fucked a lot of things up, but militarily he wasn't that far off the mark.

I'm not sure what this logical fallacy is called - but it's a doozy!

Just because Hitler was batshit bonkers, does not mean he was 100% incompetent on all fronts! Go back to logic school!

The trouble with tactics though, is that they become far less useful as soon as counter-tactics are devised. That's where you need long-term strategies and alternative tactics. Adolf and his boys kinda sucked on that front...

The war was effectively lost before the end of 1941 (they had to reach Moscow by then, at least, if not the Ural mountains). And the primary reasons for that were the Russian winter and supply problems, not the Russian army. The bottom-line was the limited time they gave themselves to achieve their objectives. To invade Russia in late June was a terrible mistake. He should have postponed until they were actually ready, to mid/late April or early May of 1942. Those extra couple of months may have made all the difference, but we'll never know. Plus, they could have sorted Britain out in the interim, with all of the positive and significant benefits that would have entailed, which I mentioned yesterday.

...and back to hindsight. Rinse and repeat, and repeat, and repeat....

[jamest]

If you're bonkers, you can fuck anything up. For example, if he was bonkers he could have ignored the new tactics and ordered the German soldiers to casually stroll across no-mans land towards the Maginot Line, as the French seemingly expected the Germans to do.

Hitler fucked a lot of things up, but militarily he wasn't that far off the mark.

I'm not sure what this logical fallacy is called - but it's a doozy!

Just because Hitler was batshit bonkers, does not mean he was 100% incompetent on all fronts! Go back to logic school!

You've just made the same point I did!!! The clue was when I used the word 'militarily'. Wake the fuck up, or I'll ban you for 24 hours.

The war was effectively lost before the end of 1941 (they had to reach Moscow by then, at least, if not the Ural mountains). And the primary reasons for that were the Russian winter and supply problems, not the Russian army. The bottom-line was the limited time they gave themselves to achieve their objectives. To invade Russia in late June was a terrible mistake. He should have postponed until they were actually ready, to mid/late April or early May of 1942. Those extra couple of months may have made all the difference, but we'll never know. Plus, they could have sorted Britain out in the interim, with all of the positive and significant benefits that would have entailed, which I mentioned yesterday.

...and back to hindsight. Rinse and repeat, and repeat, and repeat....

It's nothing to do with hindsight. Any competent military leader would allow for the most amount of time possible in order to achieve their goals, wrt the weather. Hitler would have been well-aware of that, especially given Napoleon's mistakes.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

If you're bonkers, you can fuck anything up. For example, if he was bonkers he could have ignored the new tactics and ordered the German soldiers to casually stroll across no-mans land towards the Maginot Line, as the French seemingly expected the Germans to do.

Hitler fucked a lot of things up, but militarily he wasn't that far off the mark.

I'm not sure what this logical fallacy is called - but it's a doozy!

Just because Hitler was batshit bonkers, does not mean he was 100% incompetent on all fronts! Go back to logic school!

You've just made the same point I did!!! The clue was when I used the word 'militarily'. Wake the fuck up, or I'll ban you for 24 hours.

The difference being that you were trying to imply that I was claiming a far more all-pervasive bonkersness than I actually was. I quite happily concede that Germany's greatest Chaplin impersonator was a genuine genius on many levels. It's simply that, where he was not level, he was practically vertical!

The war was effectively lost before the end of 1941 (they had to reach Moscow by then, at least, if not the Ural mountains). And the primary reasons for that were the Russian winter and supply problems, not the Russian army. The bottom-line was the limited time they gave themselves to achieve their objectives. To invade Russia in late June was a terrible mistake. He should have postponed until they were actually ready, to mid/late April or early May of 1942. Those extra couple of months may have made all the difference, but we'll never know. Plus, they could have sorted Britain out in the interim, with all of the positive and significant benefits that would have entailed, which I mentioned yesterday.

...and back to hindsight. Rinse and repeat, and repeat, and repeat....

It's nothing to do with hindsight. Any competent military leader would allow for the most amount of time possible in order to achieve their goals, wrt the weather. Hitler would have been well-aware of that, especially given Napoleon's mistakes.

Only a fool tries to predict the weather...

[jamest]

You've just made the same point I did!!! The clue was when I used the word 'militarily'. Wake the fuck up, or I'll ban you for 24 hours.

The difference being that you were trying to imply that I was claiming a far more all-pervasive bonkersness than I actually was. I quite happily concede that Germany's greatest Chaplin impersonator was a genuine genius on many levels. It's simply that, where he was not level, he was practically vertical!

I wasn't even talking to you, initially. I was talking to kir, who asked "Anyway, why should we demand of Hitler that he should be logical? The vast bulk of what he thought, said and did was bonkers."

... I then pointed out that militarily, he wasn't that far off the mark. The point being that Hitler, however bonkers, was an okay military strategist. Therefore [implying that] there's every reason to assess his military decisions objectively. Therefore [suggesting] that bonkerness doesn't necessarily impact upon one's military prowess. Which explains why your proceeding/relevant post/comment was uncalled for and indicative of the fact that you're half-asleep. Which is why you need to wake the fuck up before engaging me.

It's nothing to do with hindsight. Any competent military leader would allow for the most amount of time possible in order to achieve their goals, wrt the weather. Hitler would have been well-aware of that, especially given Napoleon's mistakes.

Only a fool tries to predict the weather...

[/quote]
What utter bollocks. Would you have advocated an invasion of Russia in November?

Obviously, the science of weather prediction is not perfect, but you're just taking the piss with that last comment.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

you're just taking the piss with that last comment.

...and finally, he sees it!

[jamest]

you're just taking the piss with that last comment.

...and finally, he sees it!

Oh fuck off. Admit that you've made a cunt of yourself, for once.

[Hermit]

Germany's greatest Chaplin impersonator

[Xamonas Chegwé]

you're just taking the piss with that last comment.

...and finally, he sees it!

Oh fuck off. Admit that you've made a cunt of yourself, for once.

You want to go there? really?

Your buttons are easy to push. You should try not to take every silly point as a mountain that MUST be CONQUERED.