How Hitler Humiliated France

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 4:23 am

JimC wrote:
Hermit wrote:If Clémenceau, Hughes, Foch et al had been seen that as a possibility in 1918/9, the greatest 20th century catastrophe would have been avoided.
It may have reduced the chances, but there were many more historical forces leading to the Nazis and WW2 than the hard-line against Germany taken at the end of WW1...
Your thinking is akin to observing that the lack of sunlight may have reduced the chances of life on earth, but there were many other forces leading up to it happening.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by JimC » Wed May 25, 2016 5:08 am

Hermit wrote:
JimC wrote:
Hermit wrote:If Clémenceau, Hughes, Foch et al had been seen that as a possibility in 1918/9, the greatest 20th century catastrophe would have been avoided.
It may have reduced the chances, but there were many more historical forces leading to the Nazis and WW2 than the hard-line against Germany taken at the end of WW1...
Your thinking is akin to observing that the lack of sunlight may have reduced the chances of life on earth, but there were many other forces leading up to it happening.
Then you have no idea of biology - non-photosynthetic organisms (chemosynthetic) evolved long before photosynthesis...

You clearly see the decisions forced on Germany as the only, or at least the principal cause of WW2. Other historians would disagree...
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Svartalf » Wed May 25, 2016 7:07 am

if only because Stalin would likely have had expansionist drives if hitler hadn't beaten him to it, not to mention the fact that the US/Japan war would have happened anyway.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 8:44 am

JimC wrote:You clearly see the decisions forced on Germany as the only, or at least the principal cause of WW2. Other historians would disagree...
Of course wars happen all the time, and we'd still get them if WWI was followed by a Marshall plan instead of the Versailles Treaty. However, I am convinced that there is no way the greatest 20th century catastrophe would have happened in the absence of the latter. The Weimar Republic would have muddled through somehow and Hitler would not have come anywhere near the Chancellorship.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 8:47 am

Svartalf wrote:if only because Stalin would likely have had expansionist drives if hitler hadn't beaten him to it, not to mention the fact that the US/Japan war would have happened anyway.
Without Hitler the allies would have enthusiastically joined Germany in the fight against the USSR, no matter who fired the first shot.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed May 25, 2016 9:34 am

Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:if only because Stalin would likely have had expansionist drives if hitler hadn't beaten him to it, not to mention the fact that the US/Japan war would have happened anyway.
Without Hitler the allies would have enthusiastically joined Germany in the fight against the USSR, no matter who fired the first shot.
I would not like to hazard a guess of the outcome.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 10:29 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:if only because Stalin would likely have had expansionist drives if hitler hadn't beaten him to it, not to mention the fact that the US/Japan war would have happened anyway.
Without Hitler the allies would have enthusiastically joined Germany in the fight against the USSR, no matter who fired the first shot.
I would not like to hazard a guess of the outcome.
No guessing necessary. Stalin would have been spat out the back of the USSR with such force that upon landing he'd impale himself on one of the onion towers of a Russian Orthodox church - specifically the one named St. Innocent Cathedral Church. It's located in Anchorage. And as soon as the comrades had taken care of Beria there'd be celebrations from the Baltics to Cape Dezhnyov.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by DRSB » Wed May 25, 2016 11:08 am

Hitler.jpg
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by rainbow » Wed May 25, 2016 12:12 pm

Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:if only because Stalin would likely have had expansionist drives if hitler hadn't beaten him to it, not to mention the fact that the US/Japan war would have happened anyway.
Without Hitler the allies would have enthusiastically joined Germany in the fight against the USSR, no matter who fired the first shot.
Without Hitler, Germany might have democratically elected a Communist government. Why then would they invade Russia?
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 25, 2016 12:34 pm

A communist government?

Democracy, once.

Dictatorship of the proletariat.

Withering away of the state. The government is replaced by "administration" of things and direction of the processes of production.
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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 1:00 pm

rainbow wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Svartalf wrote:if only because Stalin would likely have had expansionist drives if hitler hadn't beaten him to it, not to mention the fact that the US/Japan war would have happened anyway.
Without Hitler the allies would have enthusiastically joined Germany in the fight against the USSR, no matter who fired the first shot.
Without Hitler, Germany might have democratically elected a Communist government.
Not since Germany's largest party, the SPD, morphed from being mensheviks to becoming social democrats. The change caused a split with those who remained loyal to communist principles forming the Spartacist League, later known as the KPD (Kommunistische Partei Deutschlands). Although it was and remained the largest communist party in western Europe for as long as it existed (1919-1933), it never attracted more than 15% of the vote. It was banned the day after parliament approved the Enabling Act.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 25, 2016 1:10 pm

The KPD and the KAPD were a violent, revolutionary parties. It was trying to seize control of the government before the Nazis made it cool. They considered social democrats to be fascists, to be defeated violently (social fascism theory).
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Hermit » Wed May 25, 2016 1:15 pm

Forty Two wrote:communist government Image
Yes, yes, we know.

It may have escaped your notice, but since Sandinista has stopped telling us about revolutionary communism three years ago and Redsunderthebed has become a born-again Christian, there is nobody left on this forum who advocates communism any more, be it of the bolshevik or the menshevik variety.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 25, 2016 1:29 pm

It never hurts to point out the awfulness of communism, communist theory, Marxism, etc. These ideas take hold and it's as if people have some inner desire to want these ideas to be true. Sometimes folks advance them as unreachable, although laudable, goals, with an "if only..." attitude of longing and wishing that we, poor imperfect humans, could implement such lofty and positive ideas as international socialism, Marxism, and communism.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: How Hitler Humiliated France

Post by rainbow » Thu May 26, 2016 6:38 am

Forty Two wrote:A communist government?

Democracy, once.

Dictatorship of the proletariat.

Withering away of the state. The government is replaced by "administration" of things and direction of the processes of production.
You're confusing Communism with State Capitalism.

Did you not read that in Politics 101?
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